Type 64, Porsche or not a Porsche?

[Jeffrey Leeds]

I'm finally putting in my opinion on this car. It is Porsche design #64. It is a Volkswagen KDF chassis with a special body. Known for decades as a VW 60K10; Type 60 with special Karrossserrie (sp?) Number 10. Porsche did build it. They also built many of the prototype VW KDF Wagens; that does not make them Porsches.

Case Closed

[C J Murray]

Good thing Emory didn't build it.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

Apparently, the RM theatrics didn't play well with the crowd with actual bidding stalling at $17,000, which apparently didn't work for the seller.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... on-blunder

It appears to me that the bidding didn't "stall" at all, it looks like there was not even one real bid. It was a "chandelier" bid as they say....

Very cool car with cool history, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much hype.

[Bil Brown]

if ever there was a car to be in THE museum.....I would think this would be it!......they`re sure stubborn about not buying it.

[Christian Guthrie]

Apparently, the RM theatrics didn't play well with the crowd with actual bidding stalling at $17,000, which apparently didn't work for the seller.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... on-blunder

It appears to me that the bidding didn't "stall" at all, it looks like there was not even one real bid. It was a "chandelier" bid as they say....

Very cool car with cool history, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much hype.

Agreed. When you need a 20 minute plus video on someone explaining why the car is so cool, you're really reaching in my opinion. If it had sold at 17 million, it would have been the most expensive VW in history.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

I'm finally putting in my opinion on this car. It is Porsche design #64. It is a Volkswagen KDF chassis with a special body. Known for decades as a VW 60K10; Type 60 with special Karrossserrie (sp?) Number 10. Porsche did build it. They also built many of the prototype VW KDF Wagens; that does not make them Porsches.

Yup, has always been referred to as a VW or KdF by real historians (Ludvigsen etc).

Even the car that Porsche themselves have always called the first car - the #1 Roadster - is questionably the first Porsche. I mean, the engineering drawings refer to it as a "VW Sport Roadster". Anyone who has read Excellence was Expected knows that Ferry built that car to take to VW so they could pitch it as a sports car for the VW line. The Porsche firm wanted another royalty deal like they did with the Beetle. When Heinz Nordhoff rejected the idea they went home and eventually put the Porsche name on the nose. When they decided to build the Gmund prototypes an entirely new design was created so they could be produced by hand in Gmund, the original Roadster design was not conducive to their "factory". Haven't you ever wondered why the "#1" car is so different from the 356/2 cars? That's why, because it was never considered for production by Porsche themselves. Even this story is so muddled so how could a car built a decade earlier, the VW 60k10, be considered the first car. Too. much. hype.

[Emil Wojcik]

Since it was built before Porsche went into business for himself under his own name, it is definitely not a Porsche. If you consider it a Porsche just because of Dr Porsche's involvement, that has to mean the VW Beetle is also a Porsche.

Having said that, I'd trade my 356 for this Type 64 any day.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

Since it was built before Porsche went into business for himself under his own name, it is definitely not a Porsche. If you consider it a Porsche just because of Dr Porsche's involvement, that has to mean the VW Beetle is also a Porsche.

Having said that, I'd trade my 356 for this Type 64 any day.

Emil,

Ferdinand (Professor Porsche) founded his company, Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche GmbH, in 1931 as an engineering and consultancy firm. His son Ferry (Doctor Porsche) and Ferry's sister Louise founded Porsche Konstruktionen GesmbH in 1947 to manufacture vehicles. So, per usual the story is muddy. The Porsche design firm existed but the manufacturing company did not. Interpretation is always up to whomever reads the story.

[Nick Daffern]

"Sometime in 1948/49 Ferry Porsche had the lettering P-O-R-S-C-H-E made up in the now familiar wider-than-tall style, which was then fitted to the nose just below the front trunk opening." I think I'll defer to Ferry's judgement as to whether or not the Typ 64 should be regarded as a Porsche.

The proportions of the car certainly seem to portend the design of the 356. YMMV

[C J Murray]

According to some the Egger-Lohner of 1898, named "P1" by Dr. Porsche, is the first Porsche. What about the MB SS? Auto-Union GP cars? Tanks?

The first Porsche is the car they built at Gmund when they formed their own car manufacturing company to sell cars with their name badge. Previously they were engineering consultants for other brands.

Remember when Porsche hired Toyota executives as consultants and they saved the company from bankruptcy? The cars built after that are not Toyotas.

[Sebastian Gaeta]

"Sometime in 1948/49 Ferry Porsche had the lettering P-O-R-S-C-H-E made up in the now familiar wider-than-tall style, which was then fitted to the nose just below the front trunk opening." I think I'll defer to Ferry's judgement as to whether or not the Typ 64 should be regarded as a Porsche.

The proportions of the car certainly seem to portend the design of the 356. YMMV

That’s why this whole thing is so muddy. I don’t recall, however, Ferry ever calling it a Porsche and when Ludvigsen first published Excellence was Expected he had full access to Ferry, company employees and company archives and the car is referred to in the book simply as The Type 64 or 60K10. Ludvigsen also discusses how the car was to be a platform to show the public what could be done with the KdF Wagen as a propaganda tool. Nowhere is it called a Porsche and Ferry never did either. Yes, he put his name on it some ten years later, but the car has been for sale before and the factory hasn't purchased it, instead they made a replica. In the placard at the factory museum it is not referred to as a "Porsche".

Again, very cool car, it's just not what the auction house and some people want it to be.

[Jay Broemmel]

A few people sent me links to this story. One was this gem. https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ys-auction
Big chunks of it are lifted directly from the Bloomberg article, but it also contains this:
War broke out before the Berlin-Rome race could be held, so Porsche, a member of the Nazi party and the SS who was later imprisoned, used the Type 64 as his daily driver.
I know the Professor’s wartime history has been sanitized a bit, but the SS seems a bit of a stretch. Anyone know any actual facts about that? J

[Emil Wojcik]

I remember reading there was some sort of link to the SS but I have no idea if it's true.

[Adam Wright]

A few people sent me links to this story. One was this gem. https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ys-auction
Big chunks of it are lifted directly from the Bloomberg article, but it also contains this:
War broke out before the Berlin-Rome race could be held, so Porsche, a member of the Nazi party and the SS who was later imprisoned, used the Type 64 as his daily driver.
I know the Professor’s wartime history has been sanitized a bit, but the SS seems a bit of a stretch. Anyone know any actual facts about that? J

I've never heard about any of the Porsche family being SS, I know the Baron had them as a racing sponsor.

[David Jones]

Lifted from Wikipedia.
Since being engaged by the National-Socialist authorities in building the Volksauto, Porsche was praised as the Great German Engineer.[3] Hitler considered Czechs subhuman[9] and Porsche was in 1934 urged to apply for German citizenship.[3] A few days later, Porsche indeed filed a declaration giving up the Czechoslovak citizenship at a Czechoslovak consulate in Stuttgart.[16] In 1937, Porsche joined the National Socialist German Workers' Party[17] (becoming member no. 5,643,287[18]) as well as the SS.[19] By 1938, Porsche was using the SS as security members and drivers at his factory, and later set up a special unit called SS Sturmwerk Volkswagen.[18] In 1942, Porsche reached the rank of SS-Oberführer.[20] During the war, Porsche was further decorated with the SS-Ehrenring and awarded the War Merit Cross.[21] As the war progressed his proposed solutions to new developments became more complex and Ferdinand Porsche gained a reputation in certain circles as a "mad scientist" especially with Albert Speer (mainly due to his new found affinity for "pointy" designs).[22]