Bogus Carrera Speedster?

[Adam Wright]

Another anomaly I've seen in the Kardex is I had a car once that came with a COA, listed engine and gearbox but nothing else. I pulled a Kardex, it was all blank, so that info came from somewhere for the COA.

[James Davies]

Yes, Porsche has all this information and much more. The Kardex is but just one document. So given the documentary evidence, the physical evidence that the car is fake must be pretty strong for experienced guys here to say so. Would be interested to hear it laid out.

[James Davies]

In case anyone is interested, Registry magazine vol 23 #6 page 26-30 has a lovely article by Dick Koenig interviewing Olaf Lang about the Kardex, Reutter Body Books and Porsche Production Books. Pictured are examples of all 3 types of information. (The only inaccuracy I see is the the "int Nr." is interpreted as an internal work order number, but it is in fact the internal engine number, or what Harry Pellow inaccurately called the "case casting number".)

So yes, Porsche has more information on these cars than what is on the Kardex. The production book even lists the radio serial numbers Porsche installed at the factory and how much fuel was put in the car.

[Alex Finigan]

Just as an FYI, 356 Registry, Vol. 15, No. 6, 1991, has a list of Carrera Speedsters, compiled by Olaf Lang, that says 84908 has engine # 91015, 692/0, with a GT body.

[Joris Koning]

84908 has engine # 91015, 692/0

Yes and as pointed out the 692/0 engines were roller engines which did not use the front oil coolers. If you look at the pictures posted by Adam you will see the oil lines in the front wheel well.

[Joris Koning]

One other observation, it appears as though the rear decklid does not have the tiny drilled holes to the side of the louvers to prevent crack propagation. I was under the impression that all louvered decklids had these but will go and check the notes I have on these from several GT speedsters a friend of mine restored

[James Davies]

Interesting Joris. Do you suppose the P-91015 engine has been rebuilt using shell bearings and thus they decided to install a front cooler?

If there is fraud here, it seems unlikely to be over whether the car is in fact a GT or not. But perhaps the buyers are unhappy with the restoration that took liberties or the restoration had to repair or replace lots of parts, and they didn't do it accurately? This is typical, even in high-end "concours" restorations. Just speculation here. Of course those things are what a PPI are for if the buyer is not an expert himself.

[Andrew Larson]

84908 has engine # 91015, 692/0

Yes and as pointed out the 692/0 engines were roller engines which did not use the front oil coolers. If you look at the pictures posted by Adam you will see the oil lines in the front wheel well.

I know that chassis 84908 was separated at some point in time from engine 91015. It could have been a short period or decades. As i was searching for engine 91015 (for 84912), i found out it did go through Jeff Adams at Speedsport Tuning, before it was found and reunited with 84908. As a result, the front oil cooler and oil cooler lines might have been installed during this period when 84908 had a different type of engine in it? Maybe the oil cooler lines were not removed when engine 91015 was reunited with the car?

[Alex Finigan]

Joris, yes, I realize that, but I was just pointing out that, as others have said, it was built as a GT.
As this unfolds, I think they're trying to say it's not a real GT, regardless of what engine is in it.
This will only get stickier, but if it were mine, i would not return the money without concrete evidence it's a fraud.
Jerry's not trying to stick somebody with a bogus Carrera.
My $.02.

[Richard Emerson]

Are they saying it’s not a real GS?.

[Joris Koning]

Hi Alex, I understand.

If they are indeed trying to claim it is not a real GT I would be interested to learn what they are basing their claims on. I would imagine that any judge will assign quite some credibility/weight to the Lang list and Heinrichs book. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds

[Peter Silten]

What is known about the buyer (the plaintiff)

[Roy Smalley]

One thing I have learned in 40 or so years dealing with 356 Porsche..... Nothing is absolute; in fact ORIGINAL Porsche 'documentation' quite clearly, isn't and the earlier the car, the less 'factual'. You do the best you can if provenance is important and in many cases the best you can do is to be able to argue your point successfully. Heinrich's is probably as close as one can get.

Personally since we all are expounding on our interpretation of general bs, and not an attorney, the plaintiff's case is full of basically nothing regardless of what a fishing expedition (discovery) of evidence might find. Intent and damages. It will be interesting if they find intent to defraud (which I seriously doubt), and what damages can the plaintiff prove? Loss of value? That will be based on a peeing match between experts for each side.

Interesting but what a waste of brain cells. (and money can't buy them back.....)

[Neil Bardsley]

Given the lack of details provided by the buyer's lawyers they might be using this thread to build their case!

[Vic Skirmants]

Given the lack of details provided by the buyer's lawyers they might be using this thread to build their case!

In that case, they're losing.