1600 SC rebuild

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Lars Waldner
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1600 SC rebuild

#1 Post by Lars Waldner » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:30 pm

So I am a 911 guy with many engine builds behind me. I need to build a 356 engine for my car (not matching) so I can take liberties.
I am fortunate in having a few complete engines to choose from...1600 C, and two 1600 SCs. The most likely candidate is one of the SCs which is a partially disassembled shortblock with a counterbalanced crank. The heads look good and are the black anodized versions. The P and Cs I have are a NOS set of Mahle 82.5mm and a used set of 86mm pistons with a set of steel liners and alu finned cylinders. Local friend (old Porsche mechanic) is encouraging me to go with the big bore cylinders...order some new higher compression pistons and have the cylinders machined/matched to the pistons. I realize balance is everything so I am planning to have the crank cleaned and balanced, rods machined and balanced and the heads machined re-using what is good, replacing what needs to be. I need to figure out what my cams are (understand 280-290 best for street). Local shop (Eisenbuds) will probably handle the align bore work on the case halves and CAM (Colorado Auto Machine) will do the heads and rods. Not sure who to use yet for the crank and cam yet, so open to suggestions. Assuming my crank is std, is there a general parts list for rebuild...seals/gaskets/bearings/hardware etc? Also, Denver lost one of its best chrome-powder-coating facilities a few years back and I would love to find a referral for that stuff so I don't have to send it out. Once I get my arms around what my expectations are for machining and parts, I will tear down the case and start the evaluation.

If anybody in the Denver/Boulder area wants to reach out...send me a PM.

Cheers

Lars
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Doug McDonnell
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#2 Post by Doug McDonnell » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:33 pm

Have fun deciding on what components to match: http://www.willhoitautorestoration.com/ ... 202010.pdf depending on your intended driving style.
1965 356C There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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John Hawkins
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#3 Post by John Hawkins » Sun Nov 04, 2018 10:34 pm

Lars,
Winberg crankshafts in Denver understands 356 & 912 Porsche crankshafts. Their attention to detail is second to none and they are nice guys. See Randy.
http://winbergcrankshafts.com/

John

Lars Waldner
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#4 Post by Lars Waldner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:29 am

Doug McDonnell wrote:Have fun deciding on what components to match: http://www.willhoitautorestoration.com/ ... 202010.pdf depending on your intended driving style.
Wow...this is good stuff, thanks!
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#5 Post by Lars Waldner » Mon Nov 05, 2018 11:30 am

John Hawkins wrote:Lars,
Winberg crankshafts in Denver understands 356 & 912 Porsche crankshafts. Their attention to detail is second to none and they are nice guys. See Randy.
http://winbergcrankshafts.com/

John
Thanks John! I have heard of these guys through the 911 network.
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#6 Post by Dick Weiss » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:13 pm

Lars,

Rare to align bore the later cases like the C/SC engines; check the bores w/an aligning bar. I use CCR (in TX) for crank refinishing including the grind, retreatment/hardening, and polished journals, plugs R & R'd. Comp. Engr. in Cal. can do all the work--pending on cyl. head condition, P/Cs can be suited for final 1720cc. There's nothing wrong re-using the OEM 82,5 PCs if the top 1/4" (ring reversal) of the cyl. will clean up, the bores are straight & round, and the pistons are in good condition; Compression was std. @ 9.3-to-1; You don't need to go higher incl. the B/Bore set--it'll be high enough for today's fuel for street driving! Also, the SC camshaft should be OK if it passes specs, or Elgin 66509 for all around use.

Carbs? Nothing wrong w/Solex as all original parts fit properly w/o cutting (UGH) fuel lines for Webers--
I have a complete Weber set incl. the manifolds, fuel lines, and chrome air filers for $650 shipped.
They were exchanged for a member who wanted conversion back to original for concours.
Exhaust system would be your choice, but nothing wrong w/stock OEM unless you want more noise.

Dick

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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#7 Post by Lars Waldner » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:09 pm

The Wilholt info was great although I never saw the "Coming next: The perfect 356 Street Engine" and I did check the website.
So the goal here is three fold...1) utilize as many of the parts I have on hand that make sense, 2) build a 95 hp reasonable torque street engine and 3) learn a bit. The next engine can be "amazing". My older machinist/mechanic extraordinaire up the road that looks and comments over my shoulder all the time...criticizes me for not building the tool myself, pushing the envelope and developing my own test equipment. In the years that I have known him I have restored six 911s and rebuilt countless 911 engines. He has yet to finish the hotrod dragster he has been working on for 20 years.
I dug into the 1600 SC shortblock. Had to build the tool to hold the crankshaft pulley to release the nut. Must be a factory tool for that. Everything looks good...no corrosion. Learned a lot about the oil pump, tach and fuel pump. Is the cam driven fuel pump the way to go? Looks a little "cheesy" with the cam drive. Better to use an after mkt electric pump?
Weighed the rods, all within 4 grams...so easy to tighten that up. Three choices of P and Cs...82.5 NOS Mahles, and 2 sets of after mkt 86mm.
Heads have the larger SC valves. I have both the early and late rocker "carriers"...steel and aluminum, choices?
Looking through all the parts I have, I will need a few small items but have 95% of what I need to build this. I'll need to decide on P and Cs ...but then I can send the crank and cams off to get magged and polished. My heads are the larger SC valves, but I need to make sure my P and Cs are happy with the heads. Any numbers on the crank and cams I should look for?
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#8 Post by Doug McDonnell » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:25 pm

C AND SC heads are identical with the same sized valves. The only difference was SC had sodium filled exhaust valves. As Dick Weiss said. Nothing wrong with reusing original P and C if they check out. I would say that the Shasta 1720 set is higher quality than the AA 1720 set but many very nice engines have been built with both sets.
1965 356C There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Vic Skirmants
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#9 Post by Vic Skirmants » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:27 pm

You don't need a tool to hold the pulley if the engine is out of the car; you hold the FLYWHEEL.

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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#10 Post by Sean M Rooks » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:55 am

Vic Skirmants wrote:You don't need a tool to hold the pulley if the engine is out of the car; you hold the FLYWHEEL.
+1. This worked well for me and it was cheap - also works for the axle nuts.

https://www.jbugs.com/product/5750.html

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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#11 Post by Lars Waldner » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:34 pm

Vic Skirmants wrote:You don't need a tool to hold the pulley if the engine is out of the car; you hold the FLYWHEEL.
Vic,
No flywheel on the shortblock. That would have been easy. Had to get creative.
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#12 Post by Lars Waldner » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:21 pm

Found the culprit and a few other things. Raises some questions...
Located the flywheel, and a few pressure plates. The 3-arm looks to be the one from the 58 as it is covered in the same silt the underside of the car was covered in. I am going to guess the fork and throw-out bearing want to work with only this PP. The later PPs look so refined and simple. Is it silly to question replacing the earlier PP with a later one...and to do so, what other than the throw-out bearing am I going to need to swap?
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#13 Post by Lars Waldner » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:43 pm

I also went back to the crank bearings and found STD 616 132 which I am hoping means that they were standard size and neither the case nor crank have been cut? And if given the option to use earlier (all steel) rockers vs the later SC and 912 rocker carriage...the later is better? I apparently have both although my later set is disassembled and I am going to need some parts.
I was wrong on my P and C assortment. I have two sets of Mahle 82.5mm (one NOS and one used), and an unknown set of 86mm which I have included pics of. Liners are steel with alloy outers. Only markings are a cast "TP" on the cylinder base and "ART" on the inside of the pistons. It has been strongly suggested by my mechanic friend up the road that I dump the stock rods in favor of Carrillo rods. My experience on the 911 side of life has been that in high hp-high revving engines (primarily race applications), Carrillo rods will be lighter, stronger and last longer. For a 100 hp four-banger that only revs to maybe 6000 rpm, are these really a necessity? My factory rods are pretty closely balanced to 3 grams, but I am hoping that after I get them re-bushed, with my polished crank, Winberg will be able to get the package balanced to a much higher degree?
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#14 Post by David Jones » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:39 pm

Lars you are limited in your choice of clutch by your transmission. If it is a 644 then you have to use that TO configuration and hence the pressure plate with the collar but you do have a choice of clutch size and type. I would recommend the diaphragm spring style over the coil spring.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
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Re: 1600 SC rebuild

#15 Post by Vic Skirmants » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:19 pm

Lars; your late 356 rods are perfectly good for street use. I used them in my race engines years ago and ran them to 7200 rpm.
You don't need Carrillos.

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