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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:57 pm 
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Many thanks to Bill Block.

I have very little doubt that the "registry" issue can be worked out satisfactorily to provide car information and maintain privacy. Dealing with the complexities involved should be relatively simple in today's computer age managed data. Maybe we could even have our financial records digitized?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:56 pm 
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Tag: '64 C Coupe
Wow what a heavy topic! I had no idea my VIN was so valuable.

So for the pro-registration folks, is the general idea that providing your VIN would be a requirement of being a Registry member?

If so, how does that jive with the current option (of which I partook a decade ago) of joining without being an owner? I suppose you could do a 6 month limit for non-owners as with the PCA.

In today's world, data privacy is large concern for much of America, given the rampant hacking and data breaches. What is the purpose of collecting the data? How will the data be used? How much data will be provided/required and will it include or be paired with personally identifiable information like address, phone number, etc.? Who has access to the data? Who is in control of and governs the data? How will that data be protected from being exposed to non-members? Will it be encrypted? What is my recourse if my data is lost or stolen? Who is liable and is the Registry covered for that? What type of data laws will the Registry be required to comply with?

I'm not sure it's as easy as you might think.

There've been a number of stories of members whose vehicles have been stolen and it's tragic as these cars mean far more to us than your average Toyota Camry. For many it's been a lifetime of ownership. If I were a hacker and was able to pull down a list of a few hundred or thousand 356 VINs and addresses, I could use that for pretty nefarious purposes. And there's a good chance we'd never even know.

I don't have a particular opinion on the matter except I think it should be an opt-in and not forced participation. I'm not sure we need more barriers to joining our wonderful club.

One more edit: As someone who spent a hot minute as the guy maintaining our club events calendar, my hats off to the people and volunteers and trustees that commit their time and resources to serve our membership. I was quickly overwhelmed by the commitment and Curt/Gordon were quite understanding.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:41 pm 
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You do not need to own a 356, to be a member of the Registry. Now consider the fact that some of our cars (Speedsters) VIN numbers are sold without a car. It happens. Soon the rarer Pre - A cars will be there. Some already sell for more than Speedsters. An asset worth 1/4 to 3/4 of a million, sitting in a garage with a roll up door is a worry, at least for me. We have a sophisticated alarm system at our shop, coupled with 24 hr. video, 7 day roll over, with sound.

…………………………………………………..Jim.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:09 pm 
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I don't think the actual registry was ever mandatory. I think I would remember that.

With a modern database it should be easy enough to limit what information is visible or not and if the owner or past owners can be contacted. A release form even with an electronic signature could possibly(ask an attorney) hold the club harmless. If the data is entered by the car owner then the privacy can be controlled by them. What if a member who was a previous owner wanted to list themselves as a past owner? Let them do so. Whatever data the club holds could be posted without any reference to who ever owned the car. Any name or personal information could only be entered by a member with that name and that personal information.

So, you start with a database of all 356 serial numbers and that becomes the basis for information. No duplicate database is ever created for any serial number. Members could ad information about their ownership of that car and limit the information as they see fit. If a member abuses that privilege a strict punishment could be handed out.

Once the basics were handled the workload should lessen for the volunteers.

Just one suggestion.

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:51 am 
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I’m confused by the liability issue (and I went to law school and periodically teach there)

1. Is the liability disclosure of private information? How does this differ from mailing lists etc? Why isn’t this solved by selective display? What are the damages? How is this related to information about cars?

2. Is it incorrect information on cars affecting potential value? Why isn’t this resolved by a disclaimer?

If the information is voluntarily provided and better yet with a release, where is any lienility?

If the information is available from public records and merely aggregated, where is the liability?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:09 am 
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Richard Emerson wrote:
I’m confused by the liability issue (and I went to law school and periodically teach there)

1. Is the liability disclosure of private information? How does this differ from mailing lists etc? Why isn’t this solved by selective display? What are the damages? How is this related to information about cars?

2. Is it incorrect information on cars affecting potential value? Why isn’t this resolved by a disclaimer?

If the information is voluntarily provided and better yet with a release, where is any lienility?

If the information is available from public records and merely aggregated, where is the liability?


I can't wait to see someone argue with a lawyer, and judging by the quality of the questions he is asking, he probably already knows the answer, I hear that's what a good lawyer does, asks questions he already knows the answer to. The last question I think is the most pertinent, and I think it's mostly what Bill Block was doing, taking information that was available in the public space or asking people to volunteer the info. How can there be a liability to the club there?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:04 am 
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FULL DISCLOSURE - The closest I got to a law school was in 1973 when I sold my 1962 Super coupe to a Villanova Law professor!

It sounds like a "registry" is quite possible. As you cast your vote I hope you consider this issue. We need a new look by new people.

Richard Emerson wrote:
I’m confused by the liability issue (and I went to law school and periodically teach there)


Selective display!

Richard Emerson wrote:
1. Is the liability disclosure of private information? How does this differ from mailing lists etc? Why isn’t this solved by selective display? What are the damages? How is this related to information about cars?


A disclaimer could be displayed prior to access to the information.

Richard Emerson wrote:
2. Is it incorrect information on cars affecting potential value? Why isn’t this resolved by a disclaimer?


Release!

Richard Emerson wrote:
If the information is voluntarily provided and better yet with a release, where is any lienility?


Where is the liability?

Richard Emerson wrote:
If the information is available from public records and merely aggregated, where is the liability?

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:02 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:45 pm
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Location: West Bloomfield, MI
First -- there is NO compelling reason to make supplying a serial number a requirement to belong to the Registry.
Second -- if you belong to the Registry you are already known as a probable 356 owner -- I am unaware of anyone stealing 356s to serial number. I see no increase in risk in providing your serial number; in fact this is providing what in the collectible world is called establishing provenance -- on some specify date there is documentation that you owned your Porsche
Bill Block
Once reviews columnist and now unofficial, self-appointed registrar trying to keep the faith.
Blocks Books www.BLOCKS-BOOKS.COM
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248/672-2637 blocklab@gmail.com
1953/1952 1500N coupe #11994
1957 Super tractor #133/7622
1959/1958 1600N sunroof coupe #106072
1965/1964 356C Porsche cabriolet #161564
1966/1965 911 coupe #303269
1970 914/6 2.8 modified #9140432388
1998/1998 Silk, aka the fabulous Freda’s Boxter WPOCA2983WS621230


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:03 pm 
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So if a single data record exists for each car then a menu of options could also be listed. Color choices, interior details, engine type, and trans and engine numbers could be listed. With that data in organized format some interesting questions could be answered like how many sunroofs are confirmed, how many fresh air blowers, how many outdoor temperature gauges. It would also be very easy to have a document scan feature for COAs or service records or restoration records. This information could be added as found such as when when old records are found at estate sales or swap meets. We could have a line for listing the original factory engine number with a check box option for "want to buy my original engine" so members could email the owner wanting his original.

These ideas just scratch the surface but nothing will happen if our Trustees have a closed mind or negative attitude. I am hoping that there is some support from some of the existing Trustees. Vote in the election.

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:09 am 
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Guys, what you're discussing already exists, as Curt has already said, although it's in need of updating, again, as Curt has already said, and that's being worked on...as Curt has already said. (Cliff, I know this doesn't include any of the points you've brought up, but that's more about specific functionality than being a standard registry).

It's right at the top of the Registry homepage under 'VIN DB'. Just checked and my car is listed there with all the info I provided years ago. Mine has very little info listed but has all the info I provided, nothing more, nothing less.

I checked a random number and a whole column of info about that car is listed, including previous owners with their respective locations, options, colors, build date, delivery date, current condition, and whatever other info the current owner provided.

I've searched for other random numbers and for many there's no info listed so I would assume that's because those owners didn't provide any info.

So, what exactly are you guys looking for; how would it differ from what's already available? Or is it that you can't currently add your car to the database? Again, Curt has posted that that's being worked on.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:50 am 
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Adam Wright wrote:
Richard Emerson wrote:
I’m confused by the liability issue (and I went to law school and periodically teach there)

1. Is the liability disclosure of private information? How does this differ from mailing lists etc? Why isn’t this solved by selective display? What are the damages? How is this related to information about cars?

2. Is it incorrect information on cars affecting potential value? Why isn’t this resolved by a disclaimer?

If the information is voluntarily provided and better yet with a release, where is any lienility?

If the information is available from public records and merely aggregated, where is the liability?


I can't wait to see someone argue with a lawyer, and judging by the quality of the questions he is asking, he probably already knows the answer, I hear that's what a good lawyer does, asks questions he already knows the answer to. The last question I think is the most pertinent, and I think it's mostly what Bill Block was doing, taking information that was available in the public space or asking people to volunteer the info. How can there be a liability to the club there?


Although I won't argue with Richard's points, I will say that lawyers argue amongst themselves when interpreting law as a matter of course.

Some are far more cautious than others as far as interpreting law and others are so relaxed you wonder how they get away with it. Most I have dealt with are somewhere in between. Some of you here have dealt with Porsche over trademark usage and perhaps more. Companies such as Porsche, the Picasso estate and Rolex take even minor things extremely seriously. I've had to try dealing with Marilyn Monroe's estate for a marketing campaign years ago and it was next to impossible.

It's not surprising the club wants to be as safe as possible given what it went through with the lawsuit, aimed not only at the club overall but also at individual volunteers. It's no wonder the current volunteers want to err on the side of caution.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:33 pm 
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Emil Wojcik wrote:
Adam Wright wrote:
Richard Emerson wrote:
I’m confused by the liability issue (and I went to law school and periodically teach there)

1. Is the liability disclosure of private information? How does this differ from mailing lists etc? Why isn’t this solved by selective display? What are the damages? How is this related to information about cars?

2. Is it incorrect information on cars affecting potential value? Why isn’t this resolved by a disclaimer?

If the information is voluntarily provided and better yet with a release, where is any lienility?

If the information is available from public records and merely aggregated, where is the liability?


I can't wait to see someone argue with a lawyer, and judging by the quality of the questions he is asking, he probably already knows the answer, I hear that's what a good lawyer does, asks questions he already knows the answer to. The last question I think is the most pertinent, and I think it's mostly what Bill Block was doing, taking information that was available in the public space or asking people to volunteer the info. How can there be a liability to the club there?


Although I won't argue with Richard's points, I will say that lawyers argue amongst themselves when interpreting law as a matter of course.

Some are far more cautious than others as far as interpreting law and others are so relaxed you wonder how they get away with it. Most I have dealt with are somewhere in between. Some of you here have dealt with Porsche over trademark usage and perhaps more. Companies such as Porsche, the Picasso estate and Rolex take even minor things extremely seriously. I've had to try dealing with Marilyn Monroe's estate for a marketing campaign years ago and it was next to impossible.

It's not surprising the club wants to be as safe as possible given what it went through with the lawsuit, aimed not only at the club overall but also at individual volunteers. It's no wonder the current volunteers want to err on the side of caution.


I think you missed my point Emil. What I was saying was while everyone else, including yourself, is playing lawyer, surmising about the liability to the club, etc. Richard is a lawyer, and is questioning where the liability is.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:41 pm 
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For over four years I have been unable to add cars to the VIN DB.

After all of my calls and emails over the years there was no resolution. Just told "We're working on it."

On a whim I just tried again. Added 4 cars with no problem this morning.

After posting the question on this Forum it works again within days.

I will dig through my files and add a few more when I get some free time.

Hopefully others here will do the same so we can bring it back up to date.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:58 pm 
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How does one edit the info on their cars; through Eric?

Mike

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Larry Brooks wrote:
For over four years I have been unable to add cars to the VIN DB.

After all of my calls and emails over the years there was no resolution. Just told "We're working on it."

On a whim I just tried again. Added 4 cars with no problem this morning.

After posting the question on this Forum it works again within days.

I will dig through my files and add a few more when I get some free time.

Hopefully others here will do the same so we can bring it back up to date.

But is it all it should be in terms of the available moderm technology?

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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