RM auction Saturday

[C J Murray]

I want to go on record as saying that I have never worn a Yves Saint Laurent dress or gown, at least not in public. They just don't hang well on me. To comply with our recently toughened PC regulations I must say, not that there is anything wrong with being a cross dresser.

As far as the market prices I just can't get a grip on it. Adam has extensive experience and knowledge but he recently sold on eBay a T-5 Notchback with matching engine and trans in horrible condition for $38k. It looks like most of his severely rusted non-matching hulks are fetching $25-30K. These cars are not being purchased by the Porsche elite aficionados. These are not weak prices for what the buyer is getting but I don't know what these cars were bringing 2 years ago.

I recently sold an exceptionally nice freshly restored 62 Super coupe and that had me focused on T-6 B prices. The highest sale price was $143k at Mecum Monterey for a car of mine's condition. Generally nice drivers are about half that amount. The top restorers get much more than $143k to restore a car. Even a cheap restoration of a rough car is going to be very expensive.

If you can tell me definitively what the value of any T-6 B coupe is then you are smarter than me, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I don't remember exactly but Hagerty has a 62 Super coupe at around 1-$131k and 2-$96k and they supposedly use market research along with their policy values.

[Adam Wright]

Porsche prices have softened, by about 20-30% from 1-2 years ago, at least for the normal cars. Most if not all of the cars at that auction couldn't be considered normal cars, so there isn't always a direct correlation between what is happening at the big auctions to the cars most of us buy, sell, and trade. The analogy I use to describe the disparity between the normal Porsche market and the super duper high end Porsche market is it's like watching a Yves Saint Laurent dress or better yet a gown go down the runway at Paris Fashion Week, and then go to the mall a few months later and buying some version of that dress at the Yves store in Houston. Apples and oranges, no matter what the tag says.

I like this analogy as a description of the general work at play at the Porsche RM Auction. Not sure I'm in total agreement on the 20-30% softening quote. The bulk of the (public) sales I see you do Adam on Pelican, Ebay, etc. are not at all normal cars. They're cars needing significant effort to save or require full restoration. Perhaps you do a lot of driver-level sales (like the Irish Green car we chatted about) but I'm not as in the loop on those.

I can't believe that a $60,000 driver-level 356 from 2016 is now $48,000 or even $42,000. Doesn't wash with my monitoring of the (public) market. I could support an analysis of the market plateauing a bit and even some softening for some cars (if softening means prices are down from prior years versus a slowing of accelerated values), but not to the extent of 20-30 percent.

Edited for one more note: I could see prices at the lower end softening more, as the cost of restoration has gone up. I suspect a combo of demand and the rising cost of parts as factors.

The two best examples I can give from this year are a 59 Cab and a 67S. Both sold in the low 50's. 1-2 years ago I would have pulled in the mid 70's for both cars.

[C J Murray]

I should add...there are many dealers advertising on eBay common T-6 B coupes that are shiny but close inspection of the pictures show many imperfections. The price range is in the $90-100k area and they are not selling which shows that people may be getting a little smarter. That kind of money should get you a very nice car.

[Sean M Rooks]

If you can tell me definitively what the value of any T-6 B coupe is then you are smarter than me, not that there's anything wrong with that.

I don't remember exactly but Hagerty has a 62 Super coupe at around 1-$131k and 2-$96k and they supposedly use market research along with their policy values.

When it comes to prices you can only speak in averages - as you know not all T6Bs are created (or restored) equal, and I'd say yours was very nicely restored. I don't know what you got for it but I'd have put it around the top of #2 to the middle of #1 based on the photos.

In the RM auction the fjord green speedster went for significantly less than the white one. Sometimes it's the car, sometimes it's the bidders, or both.

The two best examples I can give from this year are a 59 Cab and a 67S. Both sold in the low 50's. 1-2 years ago I would have pulled in the mid 70's for both cars.

Adam you work in a segment of the market I don't pay as much attention to, for sure. My gut says 911S prices have softened over the last two years. But I think the topic was our cars vs. 911s. Can't really assess the '59 Cab. Too many variables. On average, I think A Cabs have held pretty steady along with most 356s over the last couple of years. Some models have actually shot up a bit this year (SCs are pretty hot right now).

[Adam Wright]

I should add...there are many dealers advertising on eBay common T-6 B coupes that are shiny but close inspection of the pictures show many imperfections. The price range is in the $90-100k area and they are not selling which shows that people may be getting a little smarter. That kind of money should get you a very nice car.

Most of the cars you see in this category are from the consignment dealers. They approach a guy at a Cars and Coffee and ask if he wants to sell his car, he says no, they counter with "what would he sell it for?" He counters with a stupid high retail price. They take that price add 20% and then you see a car on the market that is now 30% above market and usually just sits there. The annoying thing for guys like me is that people use these ads to valuate their cars. They say, "T-6 coupes are selling for $120,000 all day long" and they show me 5 examples of these cars for sale. When I explain this is false pricing and those cars are asking, not selling, they usually just grumble at me. I price my cars to sell at market prices, that's why I rarely have to list a car twice.

Oh, and sorry for the obscure YSL reference, it's the retail fashion left in me. I basically grew up at Saks Fifth Ave, my mom was 2nd in command and usually had to close the store on Friday nights, so I spent a lot of time there after school, and I listened when people talked about fashion. So somewhere in the back of my mind is an extensive knowledge of things like flowing gowns from known designers, and I guess my brain is just trying to make use of it after storing it all these years.

[C J Murray]

The buyer of the 62 that I sold has looked at many cars while he traveled for business. He was educated which is what my car needed. After he had paid me for the car he attended the RM Porsche auction and I think that he is really happy with his purchase now. I will have to ask him what he thought of the atmosphere there.

[Adam Wright]

[/quote]

Adam you work in a segment of the market I don't pay as much attention to, for sure. My gut says 911S prices have softened over the last two years. But I think the topic was our cars vs. 911s. Can't really assess the '59 Cab. Too many variables. On average, I think A Cabs have held pretty steady along with most 356s over the last couple of years. Some models have actually shot up a bit this year (SCs are pretty hot right now).[/quote]

My slice of the market is where I'm most comfortable, I would much rather sell a project over a driver any day. If I describe the project honestly and show a lot of quality pictures my buyers know exactly what they are buying, so no surprises. Selling a driver has a whole host of surprises that are beyond my control, everyone has a different idea of what a 50 year old car is supposed to drive like. I sold a very nice restored 65 912 one time to a guy, he called me up screaming, saying I ripped him off and this POS! I asked what the problem was. He went on to rant about carbs popping on downshift and brakes pulling to the right at full brake. I politely asked if he had ever driven a Porsche before. He explained that he had been driving his Boxster for 10 years, he knows what a Porsche is supposed to drive like!!!! I made him an offer, there was a big PCA meet that weekend near him, I told him to take his new 912 out there and show it to his friends, tell them what he paid, and if on Monday he still felt like I ripped him off I would give him all his money back. He called me on Monday and apologized, his friends all said he got a nice deal on a great car.

[Sean M Rooks]

That's a great story re: the 912.

There's something to be said for selling the nearly dead of the 356 world. It's all there for you to see (or not see - as in the case of missing floors, rockers, etc.) versus being covered up with layers of paint, bondo, undercoating, new carpet, etc.

[Adam Wright]

That's a great story re: the 912.

There's something to be said for selling the nearly dead of the 356 world. It's all there for you to see (or not see - as in the case of missing floors, rockers, etc.) versus being covered up with layers of paint, bondo, undercoating, new carpet, etc.

Our rule is we only have and want happy customers, and most of the time this works out. You can't please all the people all the time. The only time people get themselves in trouble when buying one of my cars is when they think they are smarter than me. I sold a car to a guy one time that I described as "extremely rusty", he got the car and called me complaining that it was "very rusty" . I asked if he thought it was "extremely rusty", he said he did, I said we agree. He said he didn't think it was as rusty as I described, but then when he got the car he realized it was....

[Bruce Smith]

I’m guessing that none of us own a #1 car. I’d also bet that few of us are driving #5s. And many of the cars that we think are #2s are probably #3s. Together with nice #4s, these make up the majority of the cars that we own and drive.

On the high end, there are fewer truly special cars than purported by the ‘conventional wisdom’. Of the ~40,000 cars that might remain, if 5% are special that makes ~2,000 cars. That’s still a lot. Those select few special cars that are restored to #1 condition are worth the big dollars. But this has very little bearing on the value most of the cars we drive. There are a lot of wannabe cars bought way too high based on values of the exceptional few. At some point, buyers of these cars will be stuck with the hot potato.

For the most part I think valuations from Haggerty etc. are only useful for #3 and #4 cars. Numbers for #2 cars are good for aspiration (i.e. what might my car be worth if…). For #3/4 cars, the market suggests that differences between models (especially T2 vs T5 vs T6 vs C) and engines aren’t as big as the published valuations claim. For instance, if you were looking for a nice cab and found a very good original engine 1960 B, would you pass it up because it was a Normal T5? How much less than the valuation for a comparable C would you insist on paying? Neither car is rare so the investment value shouldn’t be a considered. These sorts of comparisons are probably most useful.

[Bob Watts]

cancel