It is currently Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:50 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:30 pm 
356 Registry Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Posts: 6601
Location: SE Michigan
Thanks for taking this on, Eric. We owe you.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:24 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 7069
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
What cools better, aluminum 4 row or 5 row or this old stock 8 row steel unit?
Attachment:
IMG_2038.jpg
IMG_2038.jpg [ 170.74 KiB | Viewed 435 times ]

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: EXCEPT!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:49 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:45 am
Posts: 6073
Location: San Francisco
C J Murray wrote:
What cools better, aluminum 4 row or 5 row or this old stock 8 row steel unit?
Attachment:
IMG_2038.jpg

I not only don't know, but am pretty sure 'intuitive' guesses about the issue are questionable at best.
Aero air-cooled radial cylinder and head designs (and there were some in-lines) prior to WWII favored fairly wide spacing between the fins for air flow. Not going to drag out the books this evening, but either P&W or Wright did the testing and found the space between the fins was irrelevant; cut the skinniest grooves you could, yielding the greatest surface area and you were on the right track. Whoever is was introduced "W" finning, pretty sure it was the first (sorta) analogue-computer machine cutting to match the cuts to the available material. Regardless, it worked.
My buddy Ken Daugherty (RIP) did some work on the aluminum coolers to find (as I recall) the lightest weight, the maximum oil volume, a sort of horse-back calc'd surface area, but that was 10 years ago? He found Brad's (NLA) the best of the lot at the time. And it was all proxies; none of those proved the best result
Pretty sure heating the oil to some reasonable "operating' temp isn't going to be easy, since the drop from ambient is irrelevant. It'll take a (heated) oil reservoir, a case, a fan shroud, an electric motor to drive the fan, and a method to measure the output temp as opposed to the starting temp.
EXCEPT:
It will also take a determination of GPM flow through that cooler and a pump to deliver that value.
Don C. did an article on a magnetic surface on the sump plate and a calc on the flow rate at the intake. I'm not convinced of the values, since the pump is capable of delivering far more volume than can be 'leaked' by the bearing surfaces (I'll see if I can find that calc; did it several years ago).
Even with that, I'm not sure anyone has solid data on the flow-rate of the cooler, and it looks pretty expensive to determine. And variable by engine wear besides.
Added by edit: The cooler flow-through rate is in no way related to the pump output rate.

_________________
Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:41 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 7069
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Ron, I expect exact answers! :D

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:30 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:38 am
Posts: 893
Location: England
That's right CJ, Can't you do the Math Ron? Yawn! We only want to know if this oil cooler will work.
Cheers Jay

_________________
 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:13 pm 
356 Fan

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:28 pm
Posts: 3322
The vendor says the coolers are powder coated -- is that good for heat transfer? Too thick? black is good? better than the oil Porsche coolers with thin silver paint?

The vendor has a foot note: Special Note: The studs on this oil cooler have been powder coated. They need to be cleaned with a thread chaser or die, if not the nut will bind up on the aluminum stud and will twist the stud out of its socket. We will not except warranty claims for this reason. but the cooler in Eric's photo shows the studs to be un-coated.

And now they are having a Halloween Sale of $93. down from their orig $110.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:58 pm 
356 Fan

Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:35 pm
Posts: 918
Brad Ripley wrote:
The vendor says the coolers are powder coated -- is that good for heat transfer? Too thick? black is good? better than the oil Porsche coolers with thin silver paint?

The vendor has a foot note: Special Note: The studs on this oil cooler have been powder coated. They need to be cleaned with a thread chaser or die, if not the nut will bind up on the aluminum stud and will twist the stud out of its socket. We will not except warranty claims for this reason. but the cooler in Eric's photo shows the studs to be un-coated.

And now they are having a Halloween Sale of $93. down from their orig $110.


Plus they have free shipping and no sales tax for US customers, so $93 out the door!
I looked on the Samba and couldn't find any negative stuff about them so far.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:26 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:32 pm
Posts: 3317
Location: Harrodsburg, Kentucky
Tag: I wish I knew as much as I think I know.
A friend bought one of these and ran it on his vintage F Vee at Road America. He said he saw no advantage over the stock decades old cooler it replaced. Oil temps were the same but he wondered if stripping the powder coating would help. He also said it fit very well.
I should add that he is not a back marker but a front runner so does not baby his engine but does use synthetic oil.

_________________
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:00 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:21 am
Posts: 596
Location: Stillwater, MN
I contacted CIP1 looking for performance information on that cooler and they pointed me to EMPI as the wholesaler. I have not heard back from EMPI yet but if I do, I will share the info.
Regarding powder coating, it does reduce heat transfer but if that loss is figured into the design, then the powder coating is not a problem.

_________________
Mark Sabbann
1964 SC Coupe 'Essy'
2013 Fiat 500 Abarth
2002 HD Road King
1989 HD Softail Springer


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:03 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 10:54 am
Posts: 2136
Location: Alpine AZ, Green Valley AZ
I suspect that the powder coating is purely for looks, but I'm not sure why one would need it. Maybe powder coat the leading edge of the tubes so they wouldn't wear away from fine particles from the fan. If the cooler is supposed to cool something, why not make it as efficient as you reasonably can?

_________________
Some days it just isn’t worth the hassle of chewing through the restraints......


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:58 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:54 am
Posts: 117
Location: Fairfax, VA
David--That is encouraging news regarding the cooler actually working, especially in a racing application.


I am thinking the main advantage of this cooler is not necessarily performance related. In my opinion, a new cooler has an advantage over a 50-60 year old used cooler. Just think a bit about decades of bearing material and other crap inside of a used cooler. There has also been many years of engine vibrations, heat cycling and stress on the metal to consider. The other advantage of using this cooler is reduced weight over original. Most of you have seen cracked engine cases near the oil cooler. I recently gave a couple dozen old coolers to a friend while cleaning out my parts storage as we only use new alu oil coolers anymore.

I tend to agree with others, that the powder coat is not a plus to this part. Powder coat can be dissolved in a chemical bath, but the materials are not inexpensive. My local powder coating company does excellent work and they are always willing to help me with whatever odd project I bring them. I may ask them to strip the powder coat from my test example since they have previously performed that service for me. I wonder if removing the powder coat will make any measurable difference in cooling performance? Controlled testing would probably be expensive.

_________________
Eric Wills


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:19 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 7069
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
I don't understand why an aluminum oil cooler would be powder coated. One concern is that foreign materials could find their way into the cooler during the coating process.

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:26 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:54 am
Posts: 117
Location: Fairfax, VA
C J Murray wrote:
I don't understand why an aluminum oil cooler would be powder coated. One concern is that foreign materials could find their way into the cooler during the coating process.



I can't figure out why they would powder coat either. But, since they are made in China, as the sticker on the box proclaims, they are already 100% "foreign materials"

_________________
Eric Wills


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:03 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 7069
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
What do you think of the cooler?

_________________
'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group