1957 GS coupe for sale

[Ibrahim Kuzu]

Joris,
"On this 57 Carrera Liege Rome Liege rally Coupe ..Did Consultation many times with Jurgen Barth .Everything is Confirmed.
Jurgen knows Jules Meur well."
Thank you,
IK

[Joris Koning]

Ibrahim, I have modified my post. Might have been a bit harsh that was not my intention, sorry for that.

My broader question remains. When is a car a true Carrera and does it need to have been delivered with an engine installed or associated with the car in factory records to be a Carrera? What are your thoughts?

[Emil Wojcik]

My thoughts are that it is whatever Porsche says it is and, more specifically, what Porsche said it was when it was new. The name 'Carrera' meant whatever Porsche wanted it to mean when they chose it as a model name, it's simply marketing. Today's Carrera has nothing at all in common with the originals other than the Porsche name, yet it's still a Carrera.

[Ibrahim Kuzu]

Joris,
As long As Vin Data plate says 1500/1600/2000 GS or GT... Car is a Carrera
Body build to made to 4 cam engine with all the stuff ( oil tank,oil filter housings,lines,coolers,Carrera ignition coils,coil switches
fuel pump,Carrera engine grill,Carrera fender and rear engine area emblems ...
To me is the most important one is Vin # and Date plate next to gas tank.....Everything else you can add or take it out...
Many People even in the factory service dept. they said take that 4 cam engine and install Push rod engine in their Carrera Coupe,Cab or Speedster
That did not make their car less Carrera....All they did is switched engine that they are comfortable with...But they still had a Carrera chassis
build by Porsche factory to except the 4 cam engine.
And do not forget Carreras have different transmission inners than Push rods...
And ,Engine bay is lower with engine rubber installed the chassis ,All different... .
IK

[chris romney]

In terms of value there is clearly a hierarchy which is determined by factors such as ownership, race history, equipment (how the car left the factory) and originality. I'd be curious to hear what everyone thinks the most important factors are when determining what a 4 cam Carrera is worth. Here are a couple of recent examples. A 56 GS with some non-original parts that was restored, complete and running didn't sell for $401,500 on BaT 2 months ago. At Amelia Island this spring Bonham's sold what was described as a 1-/2 plus 59 Carrera GS for $632,000

[Jim Liberty]

I sure agree with Adam on this one. Since I drive my cars, I would not own one with a 4-cam motor. ................Jim.

[Adam Wright]

108368 was also a Carrera but without the 4-cam, it was fitted with a 4-cam motor as soon as it hit South Africa. You can read the whole story here:

https://unobtaniuminc.wordpress.com/201 ... t-mystery/

[Jacques Lefriant]

Question
If a Carrera has had it's 4-Cam replaced by the factory with a pushrod engine is it no longer a Carrera?

[Emil Wojcik]

Once it left the Porsche factory as a Carrera, it will always be a Carrera even if someone puts a VW engine in it. It just would no longer be original and it would lose significant value.

[Ibrahim Kuzu]

If any one interested she is in Ebay and we are also offering her to members in concourse condition, turn key in negotiated price.
Full Restoration time frame is 18 months.

Ebay Link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Porsche-3 ... cR&vxp=mtr

Thank you
IK

[Roy Smalley]

In terms of value there is clearly a hierarchy which is determined by factors such as ownership, race history, equipment (how the car left the factory) and originality. I'd be curious to hear what everyone thinks the most important factors are when determining what a 4 cam Carrera is worth. Here are a couple of recent examples. A 56 GS with some non-original parts that was restored, complete and running didn't sell for $401,500 on BaT 2 months ago. At Amelia Island this spring Bonham's sold what was described as a 1-/2 plus 59 Carrera GS for $632,000

In-period verifiable race history (significance depends on the race(s), the driver(s), whether it was a factory entry or private, some might have had factory assistance) adds significant value as does numbers matching on these rare cars.....my opinion.

[Joris Koning]

So how do we judge the GT cars which got delivered without a 4-cam engine?

My question is how a "4-cam" car which got delivered without an engine by the factory compares to that of a car which did have an engine installed.

[Emil Wojcik]

My original statement still stands: If Porsche called it a Carrera when it originally left the factory, it IS a Carrera even if it left the factory without its engine. Remember, the name Carrera was simply what Porsche's marketing team decided the model should be called, and if they chose to call it a Carrera, even if it left with a push rod engine or no engine at all, it was, and still is, a Carrera.

We're putting a lot more thought into this than the factory ever did simply because of value.

So, do we know if Porsche originally shipped this car calling it a Carrera, without an engine, or if they originally called it something else? I have no idea. But these are the only facts that matter. Everything else is just opinion and therefore have no bearing on reality.

We can see on the CoA that, today, Porsche considers this car a Carrera. If they're saying this because that's what the archives record it as when it originally left the factory, it IS a Carrera.

[Roy Smalley]

So how do we judge the GT cars which got delivered without a 4-cam engine?

My question is how a "4-cam" car which got delivered without an engine by the factory compares to that of a car which did have an engine installed.

Emil makes good points. In your first question you use the word "judge" relative to a GT, then "compare" relative to 4-cam that I assume you mean a GS or a GT. Objectively I think the judgement would be, no Carrera GS, GT delivered without an engine compared with one that was that is essentially identical in other aspects, is not as desirable. Of course one can go down the road of subjective issues forever, but if there is documentation that the car was delivered without a 4-cam engine, that is a fact, and it can never be numbers matching which is fact #2.

However, there are Carreras' that are not numbers matching engines, transmissions but because of the other factors of interest, can be much more desirable than one that is numbers matching.

[Emil Wojcik]

Good points, Roy. If we're talking about desirability and value rather than if it's truly a Carrera, that's an entirely different matter.

Generally, I would personally put a higher value on a numbers-matching car with its original engine over the car we've been discussing.

But consider if the car was originally ordered without the engine but had a specific history -- i.e., the car was ordered without the engine by a world-renowned driver with a documented, successful race record, it could be worth a substantial amount more than an "ordinary", stock Carerra.