How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

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Jim Alton
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#16 Post by Jim Alton »

Felix Macaluso wrote:I found an interesting tool at a VW parts shop: it is a casting with a 36mm hole at one end and a 1/2 inch drive hole about 4 inches away. It has a spot to tap with a hammer. Idea is to apply many ft/lbs with a breaker bar and then whach it with a hammer. The impuls, added to the applied tourque, broke the nut loos easily.
Available from J Bugs for $11.95 https://jbugs.com/product/5748.html (There's also a 46 mm version for "big nut" VW buses).
5748.jpg
It's cheap enough that it's worth a try.

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Personally, I remove the nuts with an impact wrench rated for maybe 550 ft-lbs and replace them with an Al Zim "Torque Dude."

You might try renting a big impact wrench--some can do well over 1,000 ft-lbs. The also need big air compressors.

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You could also get a "sritking wrench" the professional version of the VW tool.

There are also "tubular wrenches" which are effectively super-duty breaker bars. You get a separate 36 mm box head and a 36 inch handle. I've used these: suddenly a nut that wouldn't budge turned with light pressure on a long lever arm.
 
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Paul Giganti
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#17 Post by Paul Giganti »

I've ordered a 3/4" breaker bar and six-point impact socket, and have a 3' long extension pipe. We'll see if that rig does the trick. If not I'll be looking into one of the other suggested solutions.

By the way, would any of you 356 owners with one of these torque-multiplier devices consider renting it to a fellow 356 owner?

Once I get these nuts off I DO NOT intend putting them back on this tight. My 3/4" breaker bar, socket, and 3' long extension pipe will get them tight enough for safety, but not so tight I can't use the same set up to get them off another day.

By the way, any engineers out there know how many foot pounds of torque you can get with a five foot long breaker bar used by a 170lb man jumping on it?

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Jim Alton
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#18 Post by Jim Alton »

Paul Giganti wrote:
By the way, any engineers out there know how many foot pounds of torque you can get with a five foot long breaker bar used by a 170lb man jumping on it?
A 170 lb man standing on a horizontal five foot long breaker bar yields 850 ft-lbs of torque. Jumping increases the torque but but without knowing how hard you jump I can't calculate torque.

If the bar isn’t horizontal, the torque’s 850*cos(ϕ) where ϕ is the angle from horizontal.
 
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Ned Gorski
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#19 Post by Ned Gorski »

If you don't do this every day you can simply use a die-grinder or a saws-all with a good bit .cut at a 45 deg across one of the flat spots on the nut. no need to go all the way through.Them use your bar it will come right off no worries about killing yourself of damaging the car . Then simply buy a original nice used ones off ebay they sell for between $20 and $40.. I've had to do this twice on nuts over the years that i could not brake free. works quite well.. ps really cool torque tool never seen that before .
Regards Ned

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Paul Giganti
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#20 Post by Paul Giganti »

[/quote]A 170 lb man standing on a horizontal five foot long breaker bar yields 850 ft-lbs of torque. Jumping increases the torque but but without knowing how hard you jump I can't calculate torque.[/quote]

Would someone remind me what the torque settting on these rear axle nuts is supposed to be?

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Jim Alton
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#21 Post by Jim Alton »

My 356A shop manual (August 1956 edition via Charlie White) says:

5. Tighten rear axle shaft castellated nut to 253-267 ft. lbs (35-37 mkg). Insert cotter pin.

It seems Porsche increased torque recommendations over the years. The little spec booklet says:

Rear axle hub retaining nuts.....................55 mkp (397.8 ft-lbs)

The instructions for Al Zim's Torque Dude say:

The axle nut torque Is 55mkp which is 402 ft lbs. Lets just say 380-400 is fine.
 
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Dick Weiss
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#22 Post by Dick Weiss »

I had a special socket made by my employer over 55 years ago and using a 3/4" x 3' bar (thru it), I just block the wheel(s), handbrake on, and lean on the bar w/my weight of 180 lbs. @ the 2-1/2' position (on the bar--w/the car still on the floor and it's loose; Same thing when tightening.

The socket is also used on the flywheel using the flywheel lock (engine is on the stand; Yes, I do have the Torque Meister tool, too.

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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#23 Post by David Jones »

One thing to note and remember is that when you have the nut tight and then find the cotter pin holes do not line up, DO NOT back the nut off. tighten it a bit further till the holes line up. If you back it off you just took away the whole point of torquing it enough to hold the drum on tight.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
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Martin Bruechle
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#24 Post by Martin Bruechle »

Weld a 1 1/2" x 6" pipe to a quality 36mm socket then weld that to a 1 1/2" x 6' pipe.
That is what I made around 1980 and used for several years when I had my shop.
Never had one too tight. Kinda big and bulky but with 6' of leverage a girl could get those nuts off easy.

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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#25 Post by Tom Nelson »

Have had this problem before: get the torch out and heat the nut up cherry red and then use the air gun, comes off every time! Don't touch the nut when it is hot or else you will have a "brand". Good Luck, Tom
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#26 Post by John Lindstrom »

When I was a child I used to remove them with the largest monkey wrench I could find and a cheater bar about ten feet long. Never took me more than two minutes to remove even the stubbornest of axle nuts. I learned it from reading the VW idiot book. Some children are braver than others.

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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#27 Post by Paul Giganti »

I was the original poster on this topic. I thought I'd let everybody know that today I got the two rear axle nuts off, and how I ended up doing it.

I bought a 3/4" breaker bar and a six-point 36mm impact socket to go with it. I added a 3' length of pipe for leverage giving me about 4'+ breaker bar. This by itself did not work, in fact I only managed to bend the 3' pipe!

Following another suggestion in this discussion, I added heat. I only had a propane torch so was not able to heat the nuts to cherry red as suggested. However, I made a stand and set the torch in a stable position with the flame directly on the nut and I sat back and watched the nut heat up—with a fire extinguisher close at hand.

When I got bored watching, maybe ten minutes, I gave it another try. Since I had bent my extension pipe, I looked around and spotted a better replacement near by: the handle to my 3 ton hydraulic jack! That along with the breaker bar gave me about 5' of leverage.

I've never been good at run-and-tackle (as was suggested by someone), so I tried setting the breaker bar horizontal to the ground, got a pillow and sat down on the end of the breaker bar as hard as I could—three times! On the third "sit" I felt movement—a tiny bit, and hoped it wasn't the breaker bar or socket breaking. On the fourth try I definitely felt the nut turn. However the nut was still so tight I had to continue using the pipe extension on the breaker bar to loosen it enough for my impact wrench to compete the job.

I figure those nuts were put on with 900 to 1000 lbs of torque! I don't intend to put them back on that tight. Thanks for all the advice.

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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#28 Post by Mike Wilson »

Congrats and thanks for the follow up.

Mike
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#29 Post by Ron LaDow »

Paul Giganti wrote:I figure those nuts were put on with 900 to 1000 lbs of torque! I don't intend to put them back on that tight. Thanks for all the advice.
Regarding fastening torques, there is a common sentiment that far too much is just enough.
I've never had a cylinder head loosen, nor case-halves separate, nor a flywheel, nor a rear axle hub and I try to hit what those guys at the factory found out with far more tests than I'll ever have.
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Re: How to remove two VERY TIGHT rear axel nuts??

#30 Post by Paul Giganti »

Jim Alton wrote:The axle nut torque Is 55mkp which is 402 ft lbs. Lets just say 380-400 is fine. [/i]
Another question for the engineers out there:

When I put my rear axle nuts back on, I want to torque them to approximately 400 ft lbs. I don't have a torque wrench that goes that high, so how would I come close with a 5' breaker bar (I can make it shorter)?

Is there a more precise way than just guessing?

P.S. I weigh 170 lbs if that's important in the equation.

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