S 90 engine ID

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C Richey
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S 90 engine ID

#1 Post by C Richey »

1963 S90 engine 616/7 nr. 0800 756. Does the first zero represent a European heating system.

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C Richey

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Dick Weiss
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#2 Post by Dick Weiss »

Such a number 0800756 doesn't exist for an S90 and w/o the 1st zero, the case is listed in the 800101-802000 series beginning in Sept 1959.

Geoff Fleming
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#3 Post by Geoff Fleming »

The' European' heater was used on a variety of 356, ( and 912), engines and had nothing to do with the engine power output. Cars sold for use in Germany and some of the other Euro. countries were mandated to use the newer heat system in 1963 since it was a bit safer in case of an exhaust leak. It was actually known as the fresh air heater rather than the European heater. Any 356 /912 engine can be fitted with either heat system. It is a far more effective heater than the standard type, though quite a bit heavier.

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Vic Skirmants
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#4 Post by Vic Skirmants »

Dick Weiss wrote:Such a number 0800756 doesn't exist for an S90 and w/o the 1st zero, the case is listed in the 800101-802000 series beginning in Sept 1959.
0800501 to 0801000 DOES exist for 1963 S-90 engines, according to the spec book. Page 11.

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C Richey
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#5 Post by C Richey »

Any significance to the first '0'?

How to Identify an S-90

Contributed by Eric Cherneff, Steve Heinrichs and Roy Smalley, Edited by Barry Lee Bris0
13/7/10

S-90 Engine Numbers *
800101 - 802000 (built Sep - Dec 1959)
800101 - 802000 (built Jan - Dec 1960)
802001 - 803999* (built Jan - Aug 1960)
804001 - 804630 (built Sep - Dec 1961)
804631 - 805600 (built Jan - Jun 1962)
805601 - 806600 (built Jul - Dec 1962)
806601 - 807000 and 0800501 - 0801000 (built Jan - Jun 1963)

In July 1963 production changed over to the C model with "C" and "SC" engines.

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Mike Wilson
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#6 Post by Mike Wilson »

I don't know why the zeo either. My original engine was 0700702 for my '63 Super stolen circa 1973.

Mike
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Jim Nelson
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#7 Post by Jim Nelson »

C Richey wrote:Any significance to the first '0'?

How to Identify an S-90

Contributed by Eric Cherneff, Steve Heinrichs and Roy Smalley, Edited by Barry Lee Bris0
13/7/10

S-90 Engine Numbers *
800101 - 802000 (built Sep - Dec 1959)
800101 - 802000 (built Jan - Dec 1960)
802001 - 803999* (built Jan - Aug 1960)
804001 - 804630 (built Sep - Dec 1961)
804631 - 805600 (built Jan - Jun 1962)
805601 - 806600 (built Jul - Dec 1962)
806601 - 807000 and 0800501 - 0801000 (built Jan - Jun 1963)

In July 1963 production changed over to the C model with "C" and "SC" engines.
I don't think that is all-inclusive, as my May 1963 engine is 807237...
As Vic notes in the Spec book, the late S-90's (1963) were 806601-807000, 0800501-0801000, and 807001-807400 (the last group had the Euro heaters ).

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Al Cole
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#8 Post by Al Cole »

Dick Weiss wrote:Such a number 0800756 doesn't exist for an S90 and w/o the 1st zero, the case is listed in the 800101-802000 series beginning in Sept 1959.

1963 S-90
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Last edited by Al Cole on Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ned Hamlin
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#9 Post by Ned Hamlin »

jim nelson wrote:
C Richey wrote:Any significance to the first '0'?

How to Identify an S-90

Contributed by Eric Cherneff, Steve Heinrichs and Roy Smalley, Edited by Barry Lee Bris0
13/7/10

S-90 Engine Numbers *
800101 - 802000 (built Sep - Dec 1959)
800101 - 802000 (built Jan - Dec 1960)
802001 - 803999* (built Jan - Aug 1960)
804001 - 804630 (built Sep - Dec 1961)
804631 - 805600 (built Jan - Jun 1962)
805601 - 806600 (built Jul - Dec 1962)
806601 - 807000 and 0800501 - 0801000 (built Jan - Jun 1963)

In July 1963 production changed over to the C model with "C" and "SC" engines.
I don't think that is all-inclusive, as my May 1963 engine is 807237...
As Vic notes in the Spec book, the late S-90's (1963) were 806601-807000, 0800501-0801000, and 807001-807400 (the last group had the Euro heaters ).
Brett Johnson shows S-90's 807001 - 807400(0) "till July" in his book, so yours is included.
Ned Hamlin
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John Linden
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#10 Post by John Linden »

My 63 Cab has engine 07001100 from the factory. It is a US spec engine NOT aeuro spec engine.

The final series of 356B engine were made in late 1963. The engine serial number for this series all started with a 0

Normal 0600XXXX

Super 0700XXXX

S-90 0800XXXX

The range of serial numbers is shown in the little spec book.

Why? As I recall, Harry Pellow had the answer to why Porsche created this series of engine cases in one of his books. I don't remember the details, but as I recall there was some reinforcing of this series of 356B cases which was similar to what continued on in the 356C cases. If someone has the Pellow books, maybe they can post what Harry wrote on this topic.

What I am certain of is 1) Normal, Super and S-90 cases all had a series where the serial number started with the 7th digit 0. 2) US Spec engines and Euro spec engines both are in this serial number range. 3) These engines went into late 1963 356B cars. May car is a very late 356B cab.

In the 1980s, I sold Harry Pellow my engine case 07001100. Years later Harry still remembered the case, and helped find it so I could buy it back. In 2016, case 07001100 finally made its way back into my 63 Cab where it started life in 1963. Thanks Harry!!

John Linden
Alamo, CA
63 Cab
09 Carrera Cab
John Linden
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63 Cab

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C Richey
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#11 Post by C Richey »

Thank you John Linden.

Pellow's The ABC's and the (912's) of Porsche Engines, Revision 3.56 1987 pages 245-247, explains the anomaly of the engine numbers 085001-085670 as these engines went into Karmann Hardtops.


In 1963 another anomaly, as a zero was placed in front of the 6, normals, 7, Supers and 8 of the S90's. Pellow says " I think I have finally figured it out - when the Factory went to the reinforcement case - with the reinforcement around the flywheel main bearing of the case, they changed the engine number by adding the "0" before the engine number to let everyone know that they had made a significant change--any other Theories will be considered also, but that is what the story was"

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Thank you,
C


European Heater --- Fresh Air Heater

Service Bulletin 5 pg M-163 / 04 Jan '63
B' Workshop Manual Supplement SE 31 - SE 42
in service 2 Jan '63
611 001 611 200 199 to 7/63 - 616/1
706 001 707 200 1199 to 7/63 - 616/S
730 001 731 102 1101
733 028 733 197 169 65 - 616/15
807 001 807 400 399 to 7/63 - S90
820 001 820 522 521 to 7/63 - 616/16
820 523 821 701 1178 64 - 616/16
821 702 821 855 120 65 - 616/16

600 total N 119
700 total S & C 2668
800 total S/C 2118
total .63 - .65 4985
Last edited by C Richey on Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vic Skirmants
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#12 Post by Vic Skirmants »

I call BS on those engines being designated for Karmann Hardtops. They did not stamp engines for specific cars; AND there were NO Karmann Hardtops in 1963!

Dick Weiss
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#13 Post by Dick Weiss »

Sorry Vic; I refered to the 1960 S90s on page 9; Didn't go far enough to the '63 S90s.

David Pateman
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#14 Post by David Pateman »

So, I have been doing some assembly # research and came across a little thing that seems to assist and confound the issue:
616-12.jpg
616-12.jpg (80.24 KiB) Viewed 1564 times
Note in particular assembly 68268, 69 & 70. The mating numbers assure me that these are 3 consecutive engines out of the engine shop. To me that means they were built concurrently and probably used the same basic parts. They had the same type # 616/12. So, what was the difference that required a different serial range? I suggest it had to be something external.
I would like to get a lot more assembly #'s (and mating #'s) of 616/12 engines. Please contribute.
Dave
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John Linden
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Re: S 90 engine ID

#15 Post by John Linden »

Dave:

According to the Porsche Spec book, engine number P 707125 is " *equipped with new heater System ". The P0701079 and P0701080 engines do NOT have the new heater system. According to the spec book, none of the P060xxxx P070xxxx or P080xxxx engines had the new heater.

The assumption that the engines all had the same basic parts seems hard to verify. Certainly the heater systems were different. But the P06 P07 & P08 engines were supposed to have the new reinforced engine cases. That case design was continued in use on 356C & SC cases. I have no idea if engine P707125 has the reinforced case. But I thought that unless the case began P0, it was not the new style reinforced case. All this is from memory so I am not certain. Maybe others can shed light.

John Linden
63 Super Cab
Engine P0701100
John Linden
Alamo, CA
63 Cab

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