Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lines?

356 Porsche-related discussions and questions.
Message
Author
Warren Tomlin
356 Fan
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lines?

#1 Post by Warren Tomlin » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:20 pm

Hi all,

I have a 57 speedster with a Polo engine, that is great, but running >way< too hot. It already has rear louvres, GT screen in rear, but need to route some lines to the front.

I have considered the elephant racing brass finned lines for a 911 (that need to be sectioned and soldered) with a trombone in the front - but would prefer the more accurate (and pleasing) GT/Carrera lines and coolers.

Is there anyone out there either making a kit (understanding each car is not identical, but with the rough kit there) or have one that they have decided not to use? I really don't want to use soft braided stainless with the blue and red anno setups - must look period/original.

Thanks in advance for any tips/suppliers etc.

Warren

User avatar
John Brooks
356 Fan
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:50 am
Location: Whidbey Island WA.
Contact:

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#2 Post by John Brooks » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:31 am

Contact Bill Sargent for the drawings, he did this to his A Cab.

Also
https://s3.amazonaws.com/porsche356-pro ... etduct.pdf
John Brooks

62 Roadster
66 912
getting pushed around in porsches since 1965

User avatar
Bill Sargent
356 Fan
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
Location: Beijing, PRC

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#3 Post by Bill Sargent » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:26 am

Hi Warren,

As far as I know, no one is currently selling pre bent hard lines for the A Carreras. Warren Eads sold them up to about 2010, but he is fully retired now. I purchased a set from him, but after installing them I think it would be about the same work, and less $$, to purchase the 15mm OD by 1 mm wall mild steel tubing and bend them yourself (assuming you have a go by to look at). As they took a lot of additional bending to get them to fit correctly. Installation is not for the faint of heart and it is a time consuming job, best done with the car up on its side in a roll over frame to make fitting the lines and welding the brackets easier. Have a look at the pages in my build thread starting at this link to get an idea of what is involved. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=27292&start=45.

If what you are after is better cooling with the original “look” then there is an easier solution that will get you the look. The only place you really see the hard oil lines are in the right front wheel well. Run the black soft oil lines with black aeroquip fittings from the motor all the way to where the lines go thru the front long closing panel. At that point, convert over to the Parker EO fittings, with a bulkhead fitting to go thru the closing panel, and hard lines up to the cooler area. Then convert back to black soft lines and use a couple of modern small coolers, not the 356 engine coolers and A Carrera mount blocks. Run soft oil lines across the front of the battery box to the left side cooler. I think it could be done this way with the car on a lift and only the wheels removed.

Or if you really want it done like an A Carrera, and have the money, take your car to John Willhoit or Rod Emory. Either of them have the knowledge and craftsmen to do the job right.

Hope this helps.

PS - the link John posted is to a set of slides I made and uploaded to the Registry knowledge base several years ago.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab
#159176 64C Cab
60 VW Singlecab
73 911 T
904 clone in the works

Warren Tomlin
356 Fan
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#4 Post by Warren Tomlin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:49 am

Thanks both - Bill, appreciate such a detailed response!!! I >love< the work you did! Yes do know Rod and John. While I am at it, is there a PDF of the lines as well? I think I can make it work with the other thread - just wanted to check.

Thanks again! Warren.

User avatar
C J Murray
356 Fan
Posts: 7267
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#5 Post by C J Murray » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:08 am

Just curious... how much HP does your Polo make and under what driving circumstances does it run hot? Thanks
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
'67 911 S Original Owner

Warren Tomlin
356 Fan
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#6 Post by Warren Tomlin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:19 am

Hi, it is twin plugged, 2.4 (off a 3.6) and is estimated at 180hp. The numbers are not at all unrealistic, as it is a beast in that car, but also has 2/3 cooling - I don’t track it etc as it is too exotic to be reworking routinely, but even on a 80f day in Canada (we get about say, 2 a year ;-) it can nudge into 240f - which is hotter than I would like to see. Over winter I had the gauge and sender tested and calibrated by Palo Alto (hoping it may have been off) but some results. All 8 plugs and look good - not too lean, both circuits running properly, timing on etc - just may need more oil. If too tough, I may put an early trombone and elephant lines to the front - the extra capacity and distance may bring it down - even 20f lower would make me more comfortable.

User avatar
Jacques Lefriant
356 Fan
Posts: 3355
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:50 pm
Location: National City Ca

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#7 Post by Jacques Lefriant » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:50 am

Hi
Bob Kann at GT werks has a great fabricator for the 15mm steel lines and i am sure he can help with some of the other parts
j
 

User avatar
Bill Sargent
356 Fan
Posts: 881
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:03 am
Location: Beijing, PRC

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#8 Post by Bill Sargent » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:33 pm

Warren - I do not have a PDF for the hard oil lines. Bob Kann at GT Werks is top notch and if Jacques says Bob’s fabricator can make the hard lines lines, then that is probably the easiest way to go. The tube fittings are Parker EO 15mm and any large hydraulic supply house can order them, if they do not have them in stock. The large hex nuts on the current Parker fittings are a little different than the originals which had the hex machined off to a round section for about 5mm. You can probably see what I mean on some of the photos in my thread if you look close - we machined the round section onto my hex nuts.

If you want to go totally original and use the Argus type fittings on the soft lines, Jim Ansite makes them and Jacques may have them as well. They are a B$%#&@ to assemble (min 30 minutes per hose end) though, so you may want to consider silver aeroquip. Peter Hoffman with Classic Parts in Germany can supply the front oil cooler mount blocks if you want to use the 356 pushrod type oil coolers like the A Carreras did. This is what I did, but I used the newer aluminum engine coolers. No problem keeping the 2 liter 4 cam I am running in the car cool. Peter can also supply the oil line clips that are welded to the body, but they are also pretty easy to make.

As for the oil cooler mounts and ducting, I posted PDF files for those parts in the resource section of the registry. Not hard to fabricate if you have the tools to cut and bend the metal, plus a mig welder.

Not sure where you are in Canada, but if you are in Vancouver my car is in Seattle and I will be there from about 30 July thru 16 August if you want to come and look at it. I have a lift and can get the car in the air.
Regards,

Bill Sargent
#151489 59A Cab
#159176 64C Cab
60 VW Singlecab
73 911 T
904 clone in the works

User avatar
C J Murray
356 Fan
Posts: 7267
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#9 Post by C J Murray » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:51 pm

The front cooler absolutely will reduce the oil temperature. You may know that our vintage race cars with front coolers are making 170hp and run with 100% load all the time including the top speed aero loads. They also have no engine mounted cooler and they do not overheat.

I built a 160hp 2133 pushrod engine for my 63 coupe that now has 25k miles. In its first configuration it ran at a comfortable temp until we headed west 3000 miles to the WCH. Long continuous runs at 80 mph built up considerable heat in the oil that the aluminum engine mounted cooler struggled with. I did switch camshafts and made many detail changes to the ignition and fuel settings and it now seems fine. The ultra test is a many mile long climb up the Rockies so maybe another WCH is the best test.

My guess is that your car should run good temps until it is pushed harder for an extended amount of time. The 911s didn't need front coolers until the power started to rise and emissions tuning was used.

Does Polo give you a set ignition full advance timing number? Jetting or mapping? Have you tried advancing the timing?
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
'67 911 S Original Owner

Tim Berardelli
356 Fan
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:02 am
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#10 Post by Tim Berardelli » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:01 pm

Is the engine mounted oil thermostat opening as it should?

Warren Tomlin
356 Fan
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#11 Post by Warren Tomlin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:18 pm

Tim - thanks for the good tip. At the risk of asking a dumb q - how do I know if operating correctly?

Thanks - Warren

Warren Tomlin
356 Fan
Posts: 53
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:26 pm

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#12 Post by Warren Tomlin » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:20 pm

Bill I am in the east, but was born and family in Vancouver - maybe what I need to do is 'visit' them this summer - and by visit them, I mean visit you! Will send you a note. thanks! Warren

User avatar
Jim Liberty
356 Registry Member
Posts: 2505
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Orange Co., CA

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#13 Post by Jim Liberty » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:42 pm

Has anyone tried a cooler in the rear wheel well. I have put remote filters there, and there should be room for a cooler as well. Sure simplifies the plumbing.

...........................Jim.
Jim Liberty

Tim Berardelli
356 Fan
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:02 am
Location: Washington DC Area

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#14 Post by Tim Berardelli » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:16 pm

Warren,

If you GOOGLE Porsche 911 engine thermostat that will lead you to a number of posts, on the "Bird" regarding the testing of those units. In doing a little research you can see that the thermostats have two large rectangular openings at different levels/heights on the thermostat-I'm sure that orientation is critical-make sure yours is correct!

User avatar
Vic Skirmants
356 Registry Member
Posts: 6760
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Front cooling - Where to source cooler lines/Carrera lin

#15 Post by Vic Skirmants » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:34 pm

Jim; the rear fender location for a cooler has been regularly turned down as offering any air flow for cooling.

Post Reply