Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
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- 356 Fan
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Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
I'm finally getting around to deciding what to do with my engine that's been sitting for 20+ years and I'm in need of advice from the Faithful.
I purchased the 62 B coupe, #118532, in 1997, drove it for a zippy 60 miles, then parked it in my barn and began to strip it to bare metal. You know the story.
The engine has been on a stand, with Marvel Mystery Oil on the pistons, spray lube on the valve trains, turned over by hand periodically and always moves free and easy.
Fast forward and I just did a leak down test and got 9% leakage on #1 and #4, 8% on #2 and 13% on #3. All appeared to be leaking mostly through the exhaust except #3 was rings. Valve springs are rust-free and pushrods spin freely. I haven't opened the sump yet so can't say about the bottom end.
From spotty repair records I do know that the engine currently has 190,000 miles with a rebuild at 101,500. At that time (Dec. 1980) it received the following by Redline Auto, Santa Monica:
- 2 "B" heads
-set .010-020 main bearings
- set .020 rod bearings
- 4 1600 Mahle P&Cs
- 8 lifters
-grind crank .020-.020
- weld oil cooler platform
- resize & rebush rods
- check case bore
Checking engine numbers per the Maestro's "Secrets", I find the main case pieces are each marked 823, with 1600s and 35541, which equates to a 1959 1600S. However, the 3rd piece, P*700851 is marked 610, which I believe is original to the car. A replacement case would certainly have been noted in the 1980 rebuild so I assume it was rebuilt either prior to my earliest records from 5/5/1980 which begin at 89,000 miles, or after transfer to another owner sometime after 1985 at 180,000 miles. The next owner put about 5,000 miles on it and then sold it for $1,500 in 1987. That owner put another 5,000 on it and then I bought it from a shop in Dallas in 1997 with 190,000 miles for $3,500. Records for those 2 subsequent owners are very spotty but it's hard to imagine that either of the them would have done a rebuild and then sold it so cheaply. It was a rust bucket when I bought it with an Earl Schieb "crackle black" paint job. This leads me to think it was first rebuilt prior to my earliest records -1980/89,000 miles. If I'm correct, this engine has 90,000 on a second rebuild and is most likely due for another.
So, my quandary - do I rebuild this non-matching, mostly non-original, well-worn engine or do I look for a replacement, maybe even a Super 90 or an SC? I rebuilt my first 356 engine myself (many, MANY years ago) and might tackle at least part of it again. Or send it off for a pro to rebuild? Or should I sell or trade it as-is? I see various rebuilt engines on ebay. "air-cooled-engine-shop" is one ebay seller with an SC for $9,800 (plus core charge?). And of course through our usual vendors. Any thoughts on the value of my engine as a "core" (now that I've spilled its guts)?
For clarity, this car will be my fun driver, NOT a show car, NOT a race car, and NOT for sale. I want something to speed around these Ozark mountains where I live. I have done all of the body work myself and expect it back from the paint shop in a couple of weeks (Bali Blue) and will commence interior work asap. Meantime I need to decide what to do about this engine.
Suggestions and advice are most welcomed.
KTF
Gordon
I purchased the 62 B coupe, #118532, in 1997, drove it for a zippy 60 miles, then parked it in my barn and began to strip it to bare metal. You know the story.
The engine has been on a stand, with Marvel Mystery Oil on the pistons, spray lube on the valve trains, turned over by hand periodically and always moves free and easy.
Fast forward and I just did a leak down test and got 9% leakage on #1 and #4, 8% on #2 and 13% on #3. All appeared to be leaking mostly through the exhaust except #3 was rings. Valve springs are rust-free and pushrods spin freely. I haven't opened the sump yet so can't say about the bottom end.
From spotty repair records I do know that the engine currently has 190,000 miles with a rebuild at 101,500. At that time (Dec. 1980) it received the following by Redline Auto, Santa Monica:
- 2 "B" heads
-set .010-020 main bearings
- set .020 rod bearings
- 4 1600 Mahle P&Cs
- 8 lifters
-grind crank .020-.020
- weld oil cooler platform
- resize & rebush rods
- check case bore
Checking engine numbers per the Maestro's "Secrets", I find the main case pieces are each marked 823, with 1600s and 35541, which equates to a 1959 1600S. However, the 3rd piece, P*700851 is marked 610, which I believe is original to the car. A replacement case would certainly have been noted in the 1980 rebuild so I assume it was rebuilt either prior to my earliest records from 5/5/1980 which begin at 89,000 miles, or after transfer to another owner sometime after 1985 at 180,000 miles. The next owner put about 5,000 miles on it and then sold it for $1,500 in 1987. That owner put another 5,000 on it and then I bought it from a shop in Dallas in 1997 with 190,000 miles for $3,500. Records for those 2 subsequent owners are very spotty but it's hard to imagine that either of the them would have done a rebuild and then sold it so cheaply. It was a rust bucket when I bought it with an Earl Schieb "crackle black" paint job. This leads me to think it was first rebuilt prior to my earliest records -1980/89,000 miles. If I'm correct, this engine has 90,000 on a second rebuild and is most likely due for another.
So, my quandary - do I rebuild this non-matching, mostly non-original, well-worn engine or do I look for a replacement, maybe even a Super 90 or an SC? I rebuilt my first 356 engine myself (many, MANY years ago) and might tackle at least part of it again. Or send it off for a pro to rebuild? Or should I sell or trade it as-is? I see various rebuilt engines on ebay. "air-cooled-engine-shop" is one ebay seller with an SC for $9,800 (plus core charge?). And of course through our usual vendors. Any thoughts on the value of my engine as a "core" (now that I've spilled its guts)?
For clarity, this car will be my fun driver, NOT a show car, NOT a race car, and NOT for sale. I want something to speed around these Ozark mountains where I live. I have done all of the body work myself and expect it back from the paint shop in a couple of weeks (Bali Blue) and will commence interior work asap. Meantime I need to decide what to do about this engine.
Suggestions and advice are most welcomed.
KTF
Gordon
Gordon Watkins
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
- Doug McDonnell
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Gordon my 1st 356 had engine from 1 car trans from a 2nd into a 3rd body. I very happily drove it 7 years before selling it to a German engineer who took it back to the Fatherland to redo as a retirement project. Nobody cared about numbers matching back then. If you are not worried about numbers matching find a C SC or 912 engine to rebuild and drop in. Be careful of some of the advertised people out there. There are a few who are "shakey". I would encourage you to keep the 3rd piece if it is "original" to your car even if you don't use it during rebuilding whatever engine you decide on. Or you could just buy a case that is within range of your original and rebuild with 1720 kit and a high torque street grind cam and with your Zeniths have a nice driver engine that "Matches". It will be much easier for your kids to sell when you are gone with matching numbers these days.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Gordon, after reading the description of your engine history I think that the answer is most definitely to tear it down. The mileage alone dictates a teardown but the history makes it a no brainer. You could also buy another later more powerful engine and build one while you drive the other but be sure to buy from a reputable 356 shop or vendor. Someone like Adam Wright immediately comes to mind as he has a number of engines for sale and is in my opinion completely trustworthy.
Here is a link to the list of the engines etc he has for sale in the 356 classifieds.
https://porsche356registry.org/classifieds/15126
Here is a link to the list of the engines etc he has for sale in the 356 classifieds.
https://porsche356registry.org/classifieds/15126
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715
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- 356 Fan
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Avoid air-cooled-engine-shop at all costs. (Personal information removed by moderator) Do some googling if you need more confirmation.
#6386
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Thanks for the helpful advice. I'm not sure I can afford to buy another engine and keep and rebuild mine. I had not considered keeping the third piece and buying a newer case. Interesting idea, Doug
Any opinions on the value of my engine as-is? How about the case alone, sans third piece? Pretty minimal I assume.
Matching numbers don't make much difference to me at this point. More important is to have a reliable engine, preferably with some pep.
I suspected that ebayer was questionable and I appreciate the heads-up, Edwin.
David - I will contact Adam and others known to be trustworthy. Thanks for the lead.
I'll keep everyone posted as I consider my options. The wealth of knowledge here is amazing and even more so the free sharing of that wealth.
KTF
Any opinions on the value of my engine as-is? How about the case alone, sans third piece? Pretty minimal I assume.
Matching numbers don't make much difference to me at this point. More important is to have a reliable engine, preferably with some pep.
I suspected that ebayer was questionable and I appreciate the heads-up, Edwin.
David - I will contact Adam and others known to be trustworthy. Thanks for the lead.
I'll keep everyone posted as I consider my options. The wealth of knowledge here is amazing and even more so the free sharing of that wealth.
KTF
Gordon Watkins
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
- Doug McDonnell
- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Augusta,Michigan
Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Your 3rd piece is probably worth 10-20% of your cars total worth. But only to the owner of your chassis. If you can't find case 1/2s close to correct number then just rebuild what you have for a nice reliable driver.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.
- Doug McDonnell
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Or rather than rebuilding it might be cheaper to buy something like this: https://porsche356registry.org/classifieds/21566
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
So Doug, that's 10-20% even without matching 1/2 case numbers?
Am I correct that my 3rd piece will fit a C or SC but not a 912?
Am I correct that my 3rd piece will fit a C or SC but not a 912?
Gordon Watkins
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
- Doug McDonnell
- 356 Fan
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Gordon there is no factory information on case numbers on COA or Kardex so if you have the correct numbered 3rd piece and correct case halve type, will for all intents and purposes give you a numbers matching engine. True purists will disagree. At some point we will be expected to prove our camshaft is original for the purists. I am just saying in a long winded way-Keep your 3rd piece.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.
- Charles H Jacobus
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Get a price from Mayo Performance (I'm just a customer) for rebuilding it (818) 540-4939. Ed sold it to Tom Petrushka but still work their for his sanity. They are reasonably priced. Zim's also probably does it so consider them also.
Chuck
Chuck
Current:
2012 Silver 991
1995 Midnight blue 993
1965 Red 356C
Past:
Fond memories of 14 others (including a '63 Normal and a 61 S90)
2012 Silver 991
1995 Midnight blue 993
1965 Red 356C
Past:
Fond memories of 14 others (including a '63 Normal and a 61 S90)
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Thanks Chuck. I'll check with Mayo and Zims.
Anyone know of good 356 mechanics in the Arkansas/Missouri/Oklahoma region?
Anyone know of good 356 mechanics in the Arkansas/Missouri/Oklahoma region?
Gordon Watkins
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
- Doug McDonnell
- 356 Fan
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- Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:21 am
- Location: Augusta,Michigan
Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
Dumont's in OKC https://www.dumontsokc.com/about
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.
- Jim Neil
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
If that's who I think it is (and I think it is given the location), there are a decade of horror stories out there. Yes, do a LOT of research before considering that (especially search on the Pelican forum).Edwin Ek wrote:Avoid air-cooled-engine-shop at all costs. (Personal information removed by moderator) Do some googling if you need more confirmation.
1960 356 B Coupe
2009 911 Turbo Coupe
2016 Panamera
Gone but not forgotten: 2005 Carrera S, 2004 Targa, 2001 Boxster S, 1997 Targa, 1993 RS America, 2004 Cayenne S, 2005 Cayenne S, 2009 Cayenne S
2009 911 Turbo Coupe
2016 Panamera
Gone but not forgotten: 2005 Carrera S, 2004 Targa, 2001 Boxster S, 1997 Targa, 1993 RS America, 2004 Cayenne S, 2005 Cayenne S, 2009 Cayenne S
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- 356 Fan
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
That ebay seller is definitely off my list. After googling him I recalled horror stories from years back. Thanks for reminding me!
Gordon Watkins
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
1963 356B Super Coupe w/912/SC engine
1986 911 Carrera
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Re: Advice needed - rebuild or replace engine
I am curious. In my post above, I named this ebay scam artist. He is Wayne Krieger. A moderator edited my post and deleted his name.
Why the edit? This scam artist is truly the worst I have ever heard about. Jim and Gordon did research and confirmed. (Removed by moderator)
What's the difference between naming the Ebay user and the person behind it? A veil of anonymity, no matter how thin, is part of what allows this guy to continue his criminal behavior.
Sounds like on the Pelican Parts board, you can get gory details. But not here, for some reason.
Edit: He is named here on the 356 Registry talk group by Chuck House, no less.
Why the edit? This scam artist is truly the worst I have ever heard about. Jim and Gordon did research and confirmed. (Removed by moderator)
What's the difference between naming the Ebay user and the person behind it? A veil of anonymity, no matter how thin, is part of what allows this guy to continue his criminal behavior.
Sounds like on the Pelican Parts board, you can get gory details. But not here, for some reason.
Edit: He is named here on the 356 Registry talk group by Chuck House, no less.
#6386