Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
- Pascal Giai
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Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Could you help authenticate the "James Dean" Speedster chassis number #80126
Please post a picture of an original stamping, Pre-A Speedster preferably...
It is to compare the shape of the numbers, thank you !
Pascal Giai
Please post a picture of an original stamping, Pre-A Speedster preferably...
It is to compare the shape of the numbers, thank you !
Pascal Giai
- Chuck House
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Pascal,
I think these photos tell you what you need to know about the stamping consistency. The stamping numbers in your photo look good, but I see an inconsistency that raises a red flag. The "1" is definitely different! Here is 80124 (re-painted) and 80160 (unrestored). The "1" is different in both as compared to 80126. The other numbers look pretty consistent however having a stamp before and after that are consistent with each other but different from 80126 is problematic. Also, it is difficult to tell from your photo but the original stampings are pretty indented and are not flat. Considering the enormous value of 80126, it would warrant incredible inspection of the trunk panels and x-rays, as well as provenance.
As an aside, the "8" in 80124 is upside down. A typical factory stamping irregularity.
I think these photos tell you what you need to know about the stamping consistency. The stamping numbers in your photo look good, but I see an inconsistency that raises a red flag. The "1" is definitely different! Here is 80124 (re-painted) and 80160 (unrestored). The "1" is different in both as compared to 80126. The other numbers look pretty consistent however having a stamp before and after that are consistent with each other but different from 80126 is problematic. Also, it is difficult to tell from your photo but the original stampings are pretty indented and are not flat. Considering the enormous value of 80126, it would warrant incredible inspection of the trunk panels and x-rays, as well as provenance.
As an aside, the "8" in 80124 is upside down. A typical factory stamping irregularity.
Chuck House
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
FWIW I agree with Chuck House. Suspicious.......but I will add that is not to imply fraud as has been implied. Auvrey, below, addressed the reality of inconsistent practices some 60 years ago, very well.
Last edited by Roy Smalley on Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Roy Smalley
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- Martin Benade
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Did they always use a single font, as in was there only one set of number stamps being used?
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- James Davies
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Good eye Chuck. I never looked at these stampings with a critical eye before. I wonder how much variation there was in the stamps used at Reutter? Certainly there was some.
Here's 80129, 80150, 80155, 80164, 80175 and 80196. Some restored, some not.
Also 80113 and 80013.
I can probably toss up stampings for a few dozen cars in the 501xx and 51xxx ranges from 1953 here as well, all unrestored, and you'll see some interesting variations too. There is even one stamping with serifs like 80164 above from an unrestored '53 coupe sitting in a junk yard. Also one on a '54 coupe.
Before you pointed this out, I had never notice these variations before.
I too am a bit skeptical on this 80126 find. Would be nice to see the chassis data plate, the Reutter door hinge cover tag and photos of the whole car. Plus some provenance - chain of ownership - though I know that is hard even for very original, unrestored cars. But if true, a very cool find!
Here's 80129, 80150, 80155, 80164, 80175 and 80196. Some restored, some not.
Also 80113 and 80013.
I can probably toss up stampings for a few dozen cars in the 501xx and 51xxx ranges from 1953 here as well, all unrestored, and you'll see some interesting variations too. There is even one stamping with serifs like 80164 above from an unrestored '53 coupe sitting in a junk yard. Also one on a '54 coupe.
Before you pointed this out, I had never notice these variations before.
I too am a bit skeptical on this 80126 find. Would be nice to see the chassis data plate, the Reutter door hinge cover tag and photos of the whole car. Plus some provenance - chain of ownership - though I know that is hard even for very original, unrestored cars. But if true, a very cool find!
- Chuck House
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
James,
Good collection of numbers. None of yours have a "1" similar to 80126 either, which still makes 80126 a bit different. I also notice another upside down "8" in your photos.
Good collection of numbers. None of yours have a "1" similar to 80126 either, which still makes 80126 a bit different. I also notice another upside down "8" in your photos.
Chuck House
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- Jim Nelson
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
80155 looks pretty close.
- Martin Benade
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
And that one looks to be welded in, if you look at the bottom of the picture.
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- John Lindstrom
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Look at 80155, look how different the 5’s are from each other. You telling me the factory technician set down one and picked up another to stamp 55? Seems highly unlikely. Forgery is everywhere nowadays.
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
80847, ‘55:
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
The zeros appear to vary also, most have straight sides curving just top and bottom, as mine does.
Others have curved sides and are more oval.
Others have curved sides and are more oval.
- Martin Benade
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
The pair of 5s on 80155 certainly do not match. It seems like a forger would be even less likely than the factory to use two different stamps. Very hard to explain that.
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- Chuck House
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Martin - Exactly! Most forgers usually stamp things pretty neatly. Seeing an upside down 8 or misaligned numbers usually makes me feel better.Martin Benade wrote:The pair of 5s on 80155 certainly do not match. It seems like a forger would be even less likely than the factory to use two different stamps. Very hard to explain that.
The more I look at the 80126 stamping font the more I like it. The "1" is still a little funny and raises suspicions, but others have shown some variations in number font in the same period, although it would be good to see another chassis number with the exact same style "1". Also, note how the 8 is slightly tilted on 80126. It is the same way on 80124. You certainly could not authenticate the car based as this photo of the chassis number, but I do not think you can claim it inauthentic either. There needs to be a lot more inspection to determine that.
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Just my opinion and nothing else............
1) Do you believe that Reutter had only one set of "number stamps"? My reply is: not! In a factory, stamped numbers ( and "number stamps") are everywhere (parts / furniture / tools / etc....)
2) Do you believe that Reutter gave this job to highly skilled technicians? Same reply: not! When I was working for a big car company(last century), "chassis" jobs were for "low" level guys......... the skin of the car was for upper level guys.
3) Do you believe that the guy who was stamping chassis number was focused on a perfect result? Same reply: not! Readable and Inside the rectangular area was enough. He never thought that 60 years later we'll discuss about his job! And, please, don't forget that, sometime, this guy was sick or in vacation......... and somebody else did the job!
4) Regarding this speedster, the chain of ownership is much more important than the shape of a number............
1) Do you believe that Reutter had only one set of "number stamps"? My reply is: not! In a factory, stamped numbers ( and "number stamps") are everywhere (parts / furniture / tools / etc....)
2) Do you believe that Reutter gave this job to highly skilled technicians? Same reply: not! When I was working for a big car company(last century), "chassis" jobs were for "low" level guys......... the skin of the car was for upper level guys.
3) Do you believe that the guy who was stamping chassis number was focused on a perfect result? Same reply: not! Readable and Inside the rectangular area was enough. He never thought that 60 years later we'll discuss about his job! And, please, don't forget that, sometime, this guy was sick or in vacation......... and somebody else did the job!
4) Regarding this speedster, the chain of ownership is much more important than the shape of a number............
- Martin Benade
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Re: Speedster Chassis Number Authentication
Beyond this number, has the actual car been seen? And is its history known?
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