356/912 Sump Plate

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John Clarke
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356/912 Sump Plate

#1 Post by John Clarke » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:26 am

Hi All
2 Items, While underneath doing a routine oil change, I noticed that the pulley cowling has a large hole in line with the pulley bolt. Ours is open, should this have a rubber grommet/plug in it? (912 616/40) Also while removing the sump drain plug, noted that there are more oil drips from the Sump Plate again, both from the rivet and one or two of the studs/nuts. I use full 'Nylock' nuts on the plate, don't know if I have over tightened these in the past , distorting the plate. I don't think I have enough time before leaving for France to order and fit Ron's modified plate. Anyone found a good way to stop the leaks? Wondered if fitting 2 gaskets may help.
Trying to get this ready for the Le Mans Classic, got 3 weeks now! Anyone flying over for this amazing event ?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Jay
 

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#2 Post by Dan Epperly » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:09 pm

John Clarke wrote:Hi All
2 Items, While underneath doing a routine oil change, I noticed that the pulley cowling has a large hole in line with the pulley bolt. Ours is open, should this have a rubber grommet/plug in it? (912 616/40) Also while removing the sump drain plug, noted that there are more oil drips from the Sump Plate again, both from the rivet and one or two of the studs/nuts. I use full 'Nylock' nuts on the plate, don't know if I have over tightened these in the past , distorting the plate. I don't think I have enough time before leaving for France to order and fit Ron's modified plate. Anyone found a good way to stop the leaks? Wondered if fitting 2 gaskets may help.
Trying to get this ready for the Le Mans Classic, got 3 weeks now! Anyone flying over for this amazing event ?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Jay
Sometimes the mounting surface of the plate gets distorted from overtightening or repeated cycles. I use a ball peen to tap them down flush where they are projecting up.

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Ron LaDow
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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#3 Post by Ron LaDow » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:47 pm

Jay,
I HATE shipping single-item orders overseas because of the shipping costs, but if one ships Monday, you'd have it by Friday via the least-expensive service.
If you want to do so, contact me through the web-site: http://www.precisionmatters.biz/contact.php
Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz

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David Jones
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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#4 Post by David Jones » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:48 pm

John, you can ameliorate the leaks from the sump plate by using "fender washers" or "penny washers" are what you would call them in the UK but they are 6 mm or 1/4 diameter washers with a larger surface area thus spreading the clamping load over the plate and lessening the distortion caused by using just normal size flat washers.
VW used to use copper washers and 6 mm closed end nuts to help seal their sump plates but you have to make sure that all the studs protrude the right distance to use them. I suggest you put fixing the sump leaks on your bucket list and just carry an extra couple of quarts of oil to Le Mans with you.
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
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Stephen Masefield
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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#5 Post by Stephen Masefield » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:54 pm

Hi - yes ! Will be there ! Tried to PM you but no info on your profile.
Steve
Steve
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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#6 Post by Dick Weiss » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:39 pm

John,

Unaware of that part number; Are you talking about an in-line hole (to the pulley's nut) in the rear plate/cover over the muffler?
That could be an early plate having a hinged flip cover/tab allowing a hand-crank start of an industrial engine and it's missing(?).

Meanwhile, per David's comment about the washers holding the sump plate, but I wouldn't use the blind nuts. I use a light wipe of Permatex #2 (non-hardening) oil resistant sealant (NOT RTV) and I previously neglected that adding the same to the drain plug.
Also, I make sure the studs are equaled in height, locked-in w/Loctite and having good thread including the nuts!
The magnet's copper rivet can be tightened solidly w/a large pin in a vice, the plate up-side down on the pin, and 'peened' w/a ball peen hammer on the outside.

Dick

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John Clarke
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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#7 Post by John Clarke » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 am

Hi Dick,
Yes the hole in the rear pulley is in line with the center, Looks about 40mm dia and does not have a plug in it.
Ref the sump plate, I had peened that copper rivet as it was loose, (as you suggested) and coated it with 'Heldite' jointing compound for oil. It's amazing stuff. Going to coat the gasket with it, Have sealed the sump drain plug with it as well. A plumber put me on to this product years ago installing some oil lines to a boiler/furnace.
Dan, the sump plate was not flat between the holes and some work with the hammer has cured that. It is now flat and I will try not to over torque the nuts.
I can't recall if the sump should have a screen, if so our's is missing. As stated it's a late 912 engine, did they not have a screen?
Steve, I'm down at Le Mans Classic on the Wed 4th July ( that's a big day for you guys! ) camping in Maison Blanche.
I don't have a pass to Porsche Club de France, so can't enter their enclosure.
Cheers Jay
EDIT Silly arse! the screen is there. Found it when I cleaned the sump flange around the studs. Really don't know why it's there, keeps boulders from the oil pump I suppose.
 

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#8 Post by John Clarke » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:58 am

Hi all
Further to all this while down under at the sump plate, I have noticed that the Oil scavenge / pick up tube is able to move from side to side! How is this pipe located at the oil pump end?
Thanks Jay
 

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#9 Post by neilbardsley » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:51 am

John Clarke wrote:Hi Dick,
Yes the hole in the rear pulley is in line with the center, Looks about 40mm dia and does not have a plug in it.
Ref the sump plate, I had peened that copper rivet as it was loose, (as you suggested) and coated it with 'Heldite' jointing compound for oil. It's amazing stuff. Going to coat the gasket with it, Have sealed the sump drain plug with it as well. A plumber put me on to this product years ago installing some oil lines to a boiler/furnace.
Dan, the sump plate was not flat between the holes and some work with the hammer has cured that. It is now flat and I will try not to over torque the nuts.
I can't recall if the sump should have a screen, if so our's is missing. As stated it's a late 912 engine, did they not have a screen?
Steve, I'm down at Le Mans Classic on the Wed 4th July ( that's a big day for you guys! ) camping in Maison Blanche.
I don't have a pass to Porsche Club de France, so can't enter their enclosure.
Cheers Jay
EDIT Silly arse! the screen is there. Found it when I cleaned the sump flange around the studs. Really don't know why it's there, keeps boulders from the oil pump I suppose.
I don't like using a sealant on the slump plate. For me it means cleaning and resealing every time I take off the slump plate. Which makes me less likely to take off if I change the oil. I believe that Jack Staggs recommends taking the slump plate off every time you change the oil as it's gets more of the dirty oil out. If you get some rubber gaskets (you can reuse) and torque as suggested above you shouldn't get any leaks. I'm sure that someone will tell me I'm being silly but I also, although I don't wish for it, but I don't mind a drop or two of oil from the slump. It encourages me to change the oil more frequently. Or you could buy Ron's product which I believe has a plug in the slump plate?

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#10 Post by John Clarke » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:31 am

Hi Neil.
You are correct and I know that if I use 'Heldite' sealant that I will definitely not have any leaks. But as you say, it will be a nightmare to remove on the next oil change, so I'm very tempted not to use it, as it needs to be done every 3000 miles It's like the old Hermetite Green sealant and dries like varnish! The gaskets ( just waiting for these to arrive from PRS) alone "should" stop any leaks if everything is clean and flat. I'm wondering whether to use Silicon Brake grease on the gaskets.
Does anyone have any answer to the loose oil pick up pipe?
Thanks Jay
 

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#11 Post by PaulLima » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:42 am

After trying most of the methods listed I gave up on trying to make the OEM plate leak-free. Shasta Design has a machined aluminum plate that I installed and, voila, no leaks. PM also has one that will solve this problem. Also, they look cool! But, best of all, NO LEAKS!

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#12 Post by Vic Skirmants » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:19 pm

John; your loose oil pickup pipe; to properly fix it into the case, you need to remove the timing cover. There is a trick factory tool to re-swage it to make it tight. I have always used an appropriate-sized socket and given it a smack with a hammer. Barring that procedure, just make sure your oil level is correct. This is all on the assumption that we are not discussing a 1964-69 case. If we are, then don't worry about it; there is an O-ring to seal the pipe.
Cheers.

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#13 Post by John Clarke » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:24 am

Many thanks Vic for that information. In the 356 we are currently running a 1969 912 unit (616/40) That is reassuring.
We have a remote Full Flow oil filtration system using the high pressure Fram HP1 oil filter. How important is it to replace the original By Pass Oil Filter? Just wondered what would happen if this filter was left alone !
Cheers Jay
 

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#14 Post by Vic Skirmants » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:34 am

Nothing would happen if you left the original by-pass filter in place.

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Re: 356/912 Sump Plate

#15 Post by John Clarke » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:59 am

Hi All
Result ! Replaced that By Pass filter with a new one anyway, I didn't want to contaminate the fresh oil and Full Flow Filter with the stagnant sludge and oil ( nearly a quart! ) in the By Pass Filter Housing. Decided to use 'Blue Hylomar' sealant (non hardening) on the sump plate gaskets. Ref the Franny you Tube, Our filter bowl didn't have the spring at the top or the lower central spacer at the bottom. (912 616/40)
No leaks at all. Many thanks for all your help.
Cheers Jay
 

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