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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Thank you CJ. but Adam refuses to sell me anything, because I am a past Trustee. He thinks all of us (Trustees) are out to scuttle his business.

................................Still looking for a good one, Jim.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Jim Liberty wrote:
Thank you CJ. but Adam refuses to sell me anything, because I am a past Trustee. He thinks all of us (Trustees) are out to scuttle his business.

................................Still looking for a good one, Jim.
He is a little sensitive. I would put in a good word for you but he doesn't like me either. I bet you can find one on Samba.

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'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Brad Ripley wrote:
My "IF" statement would be: IF, I had a (1) badly crashed and rusty Speedster, with (2) the chassis number intact and with (3) a correct title document, then I would have no problem with one of Mike's bodies; it would be the same car as listed on the tile with a new body. The only option would be to weld in the chassis number panel or not. It would be exactly the same as in olden times when we would order a new body in white from Porsche to replace a crashed 911; the original chassis number went onto the new body -- nothing wrong with that.
You are saying that the bodies should only be sold as replacement parts to Speedster owners only. Even then the car will not be a Porsche. In the case of the factory selling replacement bodies the car would still be a genuine Porsche. This is the problem that I have with so many restored cars that were so far gone that they contain little Porsche now.

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'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:53 pm 
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Brad Ripley wrote:
Comments please.

Pretty sure this is just a matter of the market and knowledgeable buyers/buyer’s rep.
“Original car”: ‘I’ve got documentation from new and here it is’.
“Matching Numbers car”: ‘Here’s the COA/Kardex, check the numbers.’ Buyer presumes typical rust repair unless documentation/inspection says otherwise.
“Restored Car”: No claim on how much has been replaced, but the panels match the shape of the original ones and the mechanicals are 356 parts. Presume much replacement if it bothers you on a car of this description, unless the seller has documentation otherwise.
“Driver”: Could be any of the above depending on documentation/inspection, but usually indicates non-repaired damage.
"Outlaw": Predominately 356 stuff, but no claim of originality; a matter of taste and/or workmanship.
“Fake”: Tupper-ware on VW frame with VW running gear and Porsche badges slathered all over it. Often in the wrong places.

There's certainly further granularity on the spectrum; say "Restored Racer": presume nearly all new panels. Please add more.
Again; inspection/documentation will decide and if you want a fake, that is none of my business; have at it. Just don't claim it to be anything like a 356.
Other than that, pay for the one which tackles your fanny, to coin phrase.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:46 pm 
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Jim Liberty wrote:
Thank you CJ. but Adam refuses to sell me anything, because I am a past Trustee. He thinks all of us (Trustees) are out to scuttle his business.

................................Still looking for a good one, Jim.


Yup, you guys can't work against me in your meetings on Sunday and then expect to buy things on Monday. Maybe not all the Trustee's are complicit, but silence is complicity, and many a Trustee has watched my name get kicked around at those meetings and not stood up for me, or watched me get suspended from the club and not responded when I email, I could go on and on, but you guys know far more of the details than I do, I only get leaked bits or pieces from meetings from a few sympathetic folks.
That's why I love it when one of the Trustee's says, "Just email a Trustee, we are hear to listen." BS. I email, I get crickets, oh, and a suspension.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:08 am 
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Brad Ripley wrote:
I was afraid you would ask that! Strict legal questions aside, I would say .......

My "IF" statement would be: IF, I had a (1) badly crashed and rusty Speedster, with (2) the chassis number intact and with (3) a correct title document, then I would have no problem with one of Mike's bodies; it would be the same car as listed on the tile with a new body. The only option would be to weld in the chassis number panel or not. It would be exactly the same as in olden times when we would order a new body in white from Porsche to replace a crashed 911; the original chassis number went onto the new body -- nothing wrong with that.

The naysayers "BUT" statements would be: BUT, it's still a kit car that looks like a real Speedster. Others will say, it may be a new body, BUT it's not made of old German steel and wasn't built in the Black Forest by Hartmut or Hans. BUT, wouldn't you be deceiving the next owner into thinking it's an original car?

We've all seen Speedsters with complete new pans, most of the upper body replaced, all new interior, new engine and on and on; owners called their restored cars "better than new".

Comments please.


I think the key difference between what Mike/RD is doing and what Porsche or any other manufacturer does is that when the Factory does something, it's authentic, even Post Production. Just look at what Shelby did with his continuation cars, they are a real Shelby, and the market price reflects that. Same with the Jag the Factory built last year using all old methods, it's a Jag. So if the Porsche Factory decided to do what Mike is doing, hell, if they bought Mike's bodies and slapped Porsche stickers on them, it would be authentic, but that's the difference. You can go to Vegas and see an Elvis that sings better than Elvis ever did, but he isn't the King. It's like a signature, given enough time someone could copy mine, but that doesn't make them me.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:44 am 
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Adam Wright wrote:
Yup, you guys can't work against me in your meetings on Sunday and then expect to buy things on Monday.

Ding, ding, ding, ding.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:23 am 
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Are they really that much against you but still let you keep your collumn in the magazine?

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:24 am 
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Martin Benade wrote:
Are they really that much against you but still let you keep your collumn in the magazine?


Did you see my column in the new magazine?

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:28 am 
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Hmmmm, Trustees. The problem there is "the system", not the individuals. When there is no accountability then the powerful become power crazy and lose all restraint. Other than one Trustee currently serving I have never felt that any of my conflicts with the Trustees was personal. The Trustees simply have a dismissive attitude nurtured by superiority and further supported by an unengaged electorate.

A couple of examples of dismissive attitude are these. Trustee policy is that club financial records are 100% transparent and accessible to the members. All you have to do to review them is to get onto an aircraft in your city and fly to the Pacific Northwest and visit Fred at his house or you can wait a year and attend a Registry event that Fred is scheduled to attend. See, 100% transparent and accessible! When I wrote to the Trustees to ask that the records be transferred to a computer based system so that the records were truly accessible they first ignored me and then when pushed only gently they responded angrily. This is what you get when power is unchecked. Maybe the Trustees were upset because I am a proponent of Term Limits just like nearly every other car club has enacted. If so then they just make my point for me. It's not healthy to have Trustees have a sense of ownership of the club to the point that they refuse to even respond to a member. Although Adam is way too thin skinned I don't doubt for a second that they totally ignored him. The secrets of the inner circle must remain behind closed doors.

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'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 7:44 am 
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Adam Wright wrote:
Martin Benade wrote:
Are they really that much against you but still let you keep your collumn in the magazine?


Did you see my column in the new magazine?


And I love it when people say, "he only writes for the magazine to promote his business."

Except for the fact that I've been writing for the magazine for well over a decade, long before Unobtanium even existed. I write for the magazine because I enjoy it and people enjoy my writing. That's why I wrote my movie column for years, long before I made my living with Porsches. I was just a guy running an International Music Magazine, and writing about old Porsche movies in my spare time.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:06 am 
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Oh, geez. Anybody still wondering why I finally quit being a trustee after a LIFETIME of trying to serve this club?
Time to move this to Off Topic; I think I forgot what the topic was.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:21 am 
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Vic x2 Yawn!
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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:29 am 
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Before we close this topic, which has wandered from its initial announcement, I'd like to comment that what Mike DeJong is doing is a service to our club, our hobby, and also to a revered classic car. Shelby Cobras and Porsche Speedsters are probably the most replicated bodies ever, partly because of their popularity and partly because their makers did not aggressively protect their branded product. Compare this to Ferrari and its protection of their branded products.

That being said, I would hope that Mike stamps his products with a unique identifier, visible and hidden, so that we can all verify the provenance of the bodies that come forth, especially to establish authenticity. They will no doubt be valuable, and cars made from them will have a level of worth determined by the market over time.

Consider the almost 60 year-old Shelby Cobra market as an example: dollar-wise, Shelbys are at the top, with AutoKraft (1980s) aluminum continuations now trading about 10% of Shelby prices. Not far behind are Kirkham aluminum replica bodied continuations, priced close to Shelby Continuations, with aluminum Shelbys worth more (fitted with Kirkham bodies) and fiberglass Shelbys (Superformance bodies) a bit less. And the many other companies making fiberglass replicas of the Shelby fall into place, all determined by free market forces. The beauty of this is that it provides an entry point for many more enthusiasts of the original Shelby Cobra, other than the 1000 or so originally made, most of which are locked up and seen only at concours or in museums. They are just too darn valuable to drive, mostly.

Replica bodies of our cars will help those of us who have a car that needs a new body, and as long as the bodies are identifiable and marketed as replica bodies, market forces will determine the value of the car using one. I for one applaud a metal replica body, and I look forward to seeing this product come forth. Hopefully its price point will allow younger enthusiasts to enter the 356 world, as our cars have become so pricey that only the affluent and wealthy are able to enter. And we want our youngsters to take this hobby over from us, or else it will wither and die.

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 Post subject: Re: chassis mockup
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Ronald, very thoughtful! Good points!

In Cobra World have the reproduction bodies been used to repair original cars that are too far gone to fix? I guess that is a stupid question since the price of those cars is so high that they could be made with only an ID plate as a starting point.

How obvious do the aluminum replica cars appear to be replicas? Do those manufacturers go out of their way to make it obvious?

I know Shelby sued some people making replicas, did that help to make them distinguish the cars?

Paying $200k for the best aluminum replica when real cars are $2 million(or whatever) I guess is ok. I don't imagine the $200k guy is the same buyer as the $2 million guy so I guess they don't effect each other in the marketplace

So it boils down to how easy it is to tell the fake from the original.

Talking about ID plate restos.... an RSK was restored recently that was so horrible that I doubt any part of the body structure is original. The car had been parted out in the 1960s so it had none of its original mechanical parts unless some were found during the "restoration". I don't much care for that situation either but people do what people do and so the buyer needs to be careful.

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'57 Speedster - very real
'59 Sunroof - mostly real
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process - fake chassis - real body
'63 GS 2133 coupe - very real
'67 S Original Owner - ultra real


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