STOLEN Jay Putnams 356 Racecar stolen (RED #60)

[steven mclean]

If a lost tittle was applied for and issued,you have a secondary tittle, some one has already has a release of interest. Wish you the best,I was given a 914 years ago I filed for and given a release of interest ,state patrol said to finish car then they would issue tittle.The car still sits in my yard will not invest $ in car with no tittle,now it only has useable glass .

[C J Murray]

Another lesson to be learned here is, pay your tax and get a title in your name as proof of ownership. Many race cars do not even have a title and haven't had for many years and that is a risk. A bill of sale is ok but when you sell the car there is no paper trail whereas a title can be traced from owner to owner. Titles that have not been at least marked with the name of the buyer and signed by both parties are just proof that the seller still owns the car. A title signed over by a spouse or such of the seller using the seller/owner "signature" is fraud and criminal by both the signer and the buyer and the titled owner still owns the car. A title with a unsatisfied lien shown is owned by the finance company and can't be sold by the "owner" on the title.

I think the last 20 years of selling and buying thousands of motorcycles has taught me a lot about the sloppiness and outright fraud that goes on, but I'm sure I'm not done learning. The only way to keep from having problems is to do all vehicle ownership changes by the book.

[Wes Bender]

Was it lost to a simple theft, or some kind of work or ownership dispute? What do the police have to say about it? Who's name is on the title?

Martin is asking the right questions. There are several strange things about the whole incident that need to be explained. The lack of reporting it to the proper authorities immediately is one item. There must have a been a reason for that. An attorney stating that it is a civil matter rather than a criminal matter is another. If it was actually stolen, it would be a criminal matter, not a civil one. There are usually three sides to every story and we have only been given one.

[Steven Murray]

NY won't issue a title either, the best you can hope for is a Transferable Registration.

NY Transferable registration as proof of ownership seems to be as good as a title to me. I read if NYSDMV doesn't like your 'proof of ownership' for an old PRE-NYS Title car that you purchase they'll give you a NON-Transferable registration so you can at least drive it (should it run) . They have the option to upgrade it to TRANSFERABLE after they research the ownership. As far as being stuck with insuring the car - I think once you are in this condition of having a NON-TRANSFERABLE registration and waiting on the chance for an upgrade to TRANSFERABLE - I'd guess there is a good chance you could transfer that registration, insurance and plates to another car that you can drive for $10 DMV fee, like a 2012 Camry. Then if they can update the historic's pedigree to TRANSFERABLE - while you are still cruising in the Camry they might just give you a paper , like the good old MV-4652-J-Q-8201-HH (i'm being a tad satirical). SO then you could offer a buyer the NON TRANSFERABLE plus the MV-4652-J-Q-8201-HH and life is good. SO California must have gone though the same NON-TITLE phase as the popular term in the 60's was racing for 'pink slips' which must be equivalent to a transferable registration.

[John Wurner]

Just a thought based on Law Enforcement experience.
If the car was taken from a garage, that would be a burglary in most States.
The Police will investigate burglaries, and you car, titled or not, would be listed as one of the missing items.
A burglary to law enforcement elements that can be investigated more easily than a missing car without the proper papers or proof of ownership.

[James Watters]

Was it lost to a simple theft, or some kind of work or ownership dispute? What do the police have to say about it? Who's name is on the title?

Martin is asking the right questions. There are several strange things about the whole incident that need to be explained. The lack of reporting it to the proper authorities immediately is one item. There must have a been a reason for that. An attorney stating that it is a civil matter rather than a criminal matter is another. If it was actually stolen, it would be a criminal matter, not a civil one. There are usually three sides to every story and we have only been given one.

I agree with Wes. Something here does not add up.

[Adam Wright]

NY won't issue a title either, the best you can hope for is a Transferable Registration.

NY Transferable registration as proof of ownership seems to be as good as a title to me. I read if NYSDMV doesn't like your 'proof of ownership' for an old PRE-NYS Title car that you purchase they'll give you a NON-Transferable registration so you can at least drive it (should it run) . They have the option to upgrade it to TRANSFERABLE after they research the ownership. As far as being stuck with insuring the car - I think once you are in this condition of having a NON-TRANSFERABLE registration and waiting on the chance for an upgrade to TRANSFERABLE - I'd guess there is a good chance you could transfer that registration, insurance and plates to another car that you can drive for $10 DMV fee, like a 2012 Camry. Then if they can update the historic's pedigree to TRANSFERABLE - while you are still cruising in the Camry they might just give you a paper , like the good old MV-4652-J-Q-8201-HH (i'm being a tad satirical). SO then you could offer a buyer the NON TRANSFERABLE plus the MV-4652-J-Q-8201-HH and life is good. SO California must have gone though the same NON-TITLE phase as the popular term in the 60's was racing for 'pink slips' which must be equivalent to a transferable registration.

A Transferable Reg is legal but you can't always convince people of that. They want a TITLE, not a little card. When you tell them you can't get a title in NY, they think something is wrong and don't buy the car. Ask me how I know....

[Henry Jay Putnam IV]

Martin, thanks for this wishful thought! I wish I had a lot of money, I would have bought it 6 months ago then hired an attorney!

[Steven Murray]

A Transferable Reg is legal but you can't always convince people of that. They want a TITLE, not a little card. When you tell them you can't get a title in NY, they think something is wrong and don't buy the car. Ask me how I know....

Adam I see you point. The only plus about the transferable reg is that they don't charge you the $50 for a title. The legislature will probably figure this out soon and make everybody buy a title.

[Steven Murray]

I bet if this car had been insured for theft, the insurance company would have found the way to get that car back to you within a few days. I can't see them paying on a claim if they can be told where the car actually sits.

[Ron LaDow]

I make no comment regarding this particular car or the issues surrounding it. Just offering some experience and what I've read:
On buying the March F1 car (absent the engine/transaxel) there was obviously no legal title. By photos and written descriptions, the seller and I established what had been sold and bought. This became valuable some 30 years later when someone proposed the car he had for sale was the car I had sold. The photos in particular were valuable, as the recorded history of the car included who was sponsoring it when.
Similarly, Griff Borgeson, on buying the two front-drive Millers from Bugatti fils and receiving them in LA, was advised by Buster Keaton's son to register them with the CA DMV and obtain 'pink slips'. Which came in handy, as the LA Museum of Science and Industry attempted to gain permanent control of one of the cars which Borgeson had loaned to them.
Simply: Establish your ownership of any possibly valuable asset by every means you have available. There will be those who attempt to pry that asset from you by every means they have available.
(For those not familiar with the history, Bugatti bought the cars to copy much of the engine architecture; Bugatti owners can buy parts from Miller rebop suppliers)
Added by edit: I fantasize barn-finding the last Miller front-drive; it was built, it was shown in LA and it has never been seen again.

[Tom Coughlin]

Jay: The car was stolen in Massachusetts, right? I guess you lived in the town or city that it was stolen from and if that's correct, you probably had a lawyer there and I will assume he often talks with the local police department. If that is correct, I suggest you get that attorney to file a stolen car report with that police force for you.Good luck, Tom

One other thought, free advice is worth what you pay for it.

[Henry Jay Putnam IV]

I apologize to not responding in the last couple of days, I have wasted them defending myself on the Pelican parts forum where I dont belong, anyway. I will copy and paste my Rennlist Explanation, to bring you guys up to speed. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your kind words, and thoughtful questions. Truly gentlemen on the Registry and Rennlist site, I feel like i need a bath every time I get on Pelican. Serves me right, I dont belong there anyway.
Thanks Again, and God Bless

[Henry Jay Putnam IV]

Here is what I was able to offer. If there are questions I've not satisfied on this site, this should shed some light. However If not ask away.
Copied from Rennlist answering one person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavonder View Post
I don't know Max, & I'm not trying to defend him. It just seems odd that a well known business owner would take this kind of chance with his reputation.

Why is it that the police will not help?
(1) I do not know why anyone would take this chance. I approached him as a buyer, with the intention of purchasing the car, once I had determined He an Drew didnt have anything to do with the miss appropriation of my car.
I wanted to buy it back and go after the guy who took it from my shop in Mass. I guess this approach pissed him off, as I told him who I was and wanted to buy it back, so much of the parts were missing so I offered 18K for it.

(2) At the time I was moving to Fla. Jan 2013, and in the middle of my second moving trip, I noticed it was missing from my storage lot. I tried to report it on my last trip to Fla. April 2013, but the local Police, and the Mass State police wouldn't report it. Because of the delay, and it was an unregistered racecar.
Life had to go on, so I kept up the moving, hoping to get on with my life, and get over it. I was pretty sure who took it but couldnt prove it. I figured the worst, parted out and the tub was god knows where.
A few years later, my son stumbled across an ad for it online, so a pursuit was started in earnest. In the ad, Drew stated in the ad he was trying to get info on me and the car, I am easy to find, so that point confuses me. If we had connected this would have been put to bed a long time ago.
Now that the current person whom has it, wont return calls, hasnt in over a year, I am getting aggressive. I hope this answers more question than it raises. I tried this same thing on Pelican Parts BBS and got tore a new one (hostile bunch).

So, any real help would be appreciated, Jay Putnam
561.330.2847

[Henry Jay Putnam IV]

I see you show the VIN via the COA - shouldn't you post in the registy's VIN lookup here that the car is stolen? I did a lookup and unlike some cars there are not owner comments or details on this car.

Thanks I will correct that now.