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 Post subject: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:36 am 
356 Fan
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Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:21 am
Posts: 34
Location: West Sussex, England
Dear Learned Gentlemen,
Now having completed the restoration of my BT6 (sorry, it's a bit of an outlaw) I would dearly like to do some competition with the car. This would only be club stuff - hillclimbs and sprints (i.e. one timed lap round minor race tracks) Unfortunately a lot of the classes for the 356 would be 1600cc to 2000cc so with a 1600 motor I would be on a hiding to nothing as they say and at the very least I would like to be in the fray with just a chance. Even with my existing 1600 engine I am only too aware of the racing red mist that descends and clouds over the red line on the tach and before you know it you have converted your lovely engine into something really useful like a boat anchor. So the plan is to build up a healthy 2 litre lump and swap it in and save my valuable 356 engine for posterity. To this end I have been offered a type 4 engine that is in the process of being rebuilt. It has new plus 20 pistons but before I buy it and start on the rebuild I am just wondering if this motor might not be any good to go in to the 356. I know I would have to junk a lot of the ancilliaries but is the basic crankcase OK to hook up to my transaxle. The type 4 engine is the one that was fitted to the station wagen type of VW which was called the 411 or 412. If anybody could give me a little advice before I proceed I would be very grateful.

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:50 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:21 am
Posts: 670
Location: London
If you don't get a good answer on here message Ian Clark (@wpsengines) . He is an porsche/vw engine builder based in Norfolk that will be able to have. He certainly will have put Type 4 engines into 356s


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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:01 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:32 am
Posts: 927
Location: SW Boston
Tag: Go Gators
This may help;
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45282

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:55 pm
Posts: 288
Location: Rhode Island
Graham:

All of a sudden folks are wanting to save "valuable 356 engine for posterity" . To me, the future is now. If we have reached a point where 356 engines belong on a wall to be looked at only, I am getting a bit worried.

Not sure in your location, but here in my race group, the VSCCA, the rules say " original type of engine, original displacement" While no one says much if you have a Super 90 or 912 spec. engine in a 356, or Webers carbs, 1800cc's Etc. eyebrows would be raised if you had a type 4 motor in there. Yes, a type 4 will bolt up to the transaxle, but not much else will. Type 4's had a fan mounted on the crank pulley, a number of things need to change. And all that for a 1700 or 1800 cc engine that is designed for low revs, meaning, you will need to replace all of the internal parts if you are going to rev it much. Then, by the time you will have done everything needed to fit the 150HP engine into the 356, you will have to move on to the transaxle, which is designed for 100 HP and will break when you abuse it with the big 2000cc engine. I think a better course of action would be to simply build a good 356 race motor, using a counterbalanced crank and 912 heads. That should be able to take 7K revs.

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:56 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:38 am
Posts: 871
Location: England
Hi Graham
There are 3 pages of info on the Type 4 unit on the Outlaw Section right here on the registry. I have no personal experience on the Type 4 engine but Jake Raby is the acknowledged expert on the Type 4 VW unit, he also has lots of experience on the 356.
Cheers Jay

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:02 pm
Posts: 868
(sorry, it's a bit of an outlaw) Why are you apologizing??


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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:54 am
Posts: 110
Location: Fairfax, VA
A properly built 356 transaxle can handle the power of a 2.0 type 4. Search the Cadrobbi conversion, or 356 LSD. If you are going that route, it would be a good idea to make the rear tray in the engine compartment removable. Many A cars had this feature from the factory. Trying to get the VW engine in and out of the car with the gearbox installed will end up with a bent main shaft as you attempt to clear the rear tray.

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:43 pm
Posts: 135
Location: Colorado
Tag: Still searching for the Holy Grill
What to do, what to do. Let me provide some insight from my files.
I currently have a 65 SC coupe with a 1720cc engine, and a Willhoit WR 58 cam, mated to a long fourth transmission.
I also have a 61 Roadster with a 1925cc Willhoit engine.
And, I have just finished a 2.1L Willhoit engine from scratch. I know, you are going to say that that’s a lot of money. At age 78, I find that it is cheaper than golf, playing the ponies, big boats, tracking GT2s, divorce, etc.

My WR 2.1L, has standard C/SC heads and one of John’s WR68 cams, and a Bursch street quiet Muffler. It will not pull the 150HP that John gets, but I’m not I going to care. Hopefully more like 130-140HP Low down.
.
I rarely exceed 5K rpm, let alone 6k, never take it to 7k. My goal is to have a streetable engine that I can walk the coupe up the mountain with the tall fourth. The Roadster can do that with standard gearing.

Driving at mile high, SCs drive like Cs. At 2X mile high, SCs drive like Normals.

So the original engine in the “Tart” is going under wraps.

Here is what I’ve learned. Avoid high revving (7Krpm) street engine. There is no replacement for displacement.
If you want the thrill of speed, without the $peed, buy a MG TD w/Dunlap Goldseals. Then do a Track Day with it.

Have fun.

What I’m really trying to say is to keep the complete engine as STOCK APPEARING as possible. Buy something that has already been engineered and debugged. Don’t try to completely re-engineer something.
Life is short, death is long.

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Posts: 6499
Location: SE Michigan
+1, Roger.

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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:08 pm 
356 Fan

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:54 am
Posts: 285
Location: Durham, NC
Tag: Let's be careful out there!
I have a 63 coupe with a 2 liter Type 4 motor. Runs GREAT! 145 HP. It is an easy install but I didn't do it. Came in the car but I do have the original motor. I agree that the numbers matching motor is too valuable to risk damage but that is just me talking. If you name is on the title, you can do what you want. My 2 cents worth.
Conrad


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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:25 pm 
356 Fan

Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:54 am
Posts: 285
Location: Durham, NC
Tag: Let's be careful out there!
Take a look at Chico's Performance in California for a killer Type IV motor. You get a lot of motor at a fair price!
Conrad


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 Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine
PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:45 am 
356 Fan

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:57 am
Posts: 244
Location: Central and Shenandoah Valley VA
A Type IV is a no-brainer imho. Pickle the good one and beat the "IV". The peace of mind alone is worth it.
A friend had a FAT 2.8 Type IV in his auto-x 914. 200/200+ hp/torque. He won FTD at Charlotte PCA Parade in 2008 along with countless FTD's in regional events where he even bested a Z06 Corvette at a "Corvette Club" autocross.

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