The Official 356Talk Forum

In summer of 2017 I posted a question regarding "Metal cam retaining spring clip size for 022 Distributor??" I got a lot of help and thought I would have my 356 finally on the road again. (Working on car since 1981 and engine since 2012.) I rebuilt the 022 distributor and sent it off to Bruce Smith to see if it was ok as far as a distribution curve. All seemed well and when I got it back, I tried to get the car to idle and run as it was supposed to. Previously, the car idle was erratic and would not return to a normal idle RPM after warming up. The old grease in the distributor was the logical conclusion after reading all the Registry posts. When I rebuilt it I did so with the exception of the return springs. The car seemed to start ok, but when shut off would not restart. Plugs, when pulled appeared wet and black. Clean plugs off and reinstall......car would not start. Install new set of plugs and car would start immediately. Let it run and the idle problems repeated. Shut it off and it could not be started until plugs swapped out with a new set of plugs. The old coil had been tested and was per spec. when I first installed rebuilt engine. I installed another new condenser, distributor cap, rotor, points, etc. to no avail. Finally, I switched to a NOS blue coil that I had in storage and the car started and would restart after being turned off and cooled down. Again, I was sure I would be driving the car by afternoon. A check of the old coil found it somehow was not close to specs for output (It died shortly after installing??). Finally I can tune this darn thing and get back on the road. Sadly, this then led to months of new problems with the car simply not running on cylinders 1 and 2. (I would pull the plug wires and no change would be noted in idle. Pulling #3 or #4 would cause instant decrease in RPM and stalling of engine.) Carbs off and on so many times I lost count. Then, things went 180 degrees. It decided not to seem to get gas to cylinder #3 and 4. Same symptoms as had been occurring with #1 and #2 cylinders. Carbs off and on again. Fuel pressure at 3.0Br., Float levels verified 18.5mm. Injection volume 3.0mm verified. Complete disassembly, recleaning of jets, gasket replacement, leak checks etc. always found nothing amiss. New plugs and wires- spark verified. Repeated tune-up procedure protocaol from step 1 several times. Valve adjustment, timing, etc. etc. I switched out the carb on the left side with a borrow one, and it finally ran ok, but wouldn't idle worth a darn. I put my carb back on and switched the top out with the borrowed carb(The borrow carb was a Zenith with different jets). The top had a different float level valve and I wanted to see if it would affect anything. It ran ok, but no better. I therefore felt that the problem wasn't in my jets or bottom of carbs. Now, I am at a complete loss, as to what to do.
I added a .2mm shim to the float level valve to lower the float levels on the right and left, as the black wet plugs, smoke etc. suggested it was just too rich even though the float level gauge indicated it was correct. I installed a new set of plugs and sulked away for a week to digest it all. Upon my return, the car started easily, I was able to go through the procedure for setting the idle at 750 after it was warm. Attached the linkages and manipulated the RPM until it climbed smoothly to 3500RPM without balking, backfiring or hesitating. Problem: After warm and accelerating RPM to 3500RPM it would not come down below 2000RPM. Shut off the motor and restart....idle smooth and steady at 750RPM. Repeat procedure and same. Solution: My assessment was that the distributor must somehow still be sticking?????? I had not replaced the two return springs, as I noted at the time of replacement the ones I got from Stoddard were about 1-2mm shorter than the originals?? On the bench the weights pivot freely. I replaced the springs with the ones I got from Stoddard and tried again. Now the car when started did not idle at the previously 750 RPM, but went directly to 2800RPM and would not come down. It would rev to 3500RPM, but would not go below 2400RPM.

I quit.......What am I missing? Do I need to redo the timing all over or ?????? What happened with the new springs? They are shorter and the springs should be returning the weights even quicker, which should return the idle to 750 RPM. The simple one year is entering it's fourth year. Sadly, there are no 356 guys locally who know any more than I do. Help!?!

Bob Stonerock

I would suggest you cut your losses and send carbs and distributor to Bruce Smith. If that does not fix it then lift them all back out and place another engine under them. just kidding, Bruce will probably find and fix the issue.

Robert -

I looked up our correspondence from June 2016 when you sent me your distributor to test. I said then: "I've tested the advance on your distributor, together with dwell angle and condenser capacitance. The good news is that everything is just about where it should be. The bad news may be that this was not at the heart of your problem." ... It sure sounds like you haven't solved it yet.

Reading your post I thought maybe you've got a bad condenser but you say you tried new points, new condenser, distributor cap, and rotor. New wires as well? Certainly worth confirming that they aren't contributing to your issues. It could very well be carb problems, maybe plugged idle jets, bent mixture screws, air leaks. Tough to troubleshoot at a distance. But if you'd like I can send you a loaner distributor to rule that out. PM me if you'd like.

Robert,
Based on what you have written, I see some issues. So lets break it down and complete each action in your diagnosis. Lets get the car back to its "default" settings, then you can make small incremental adjustments to your liking.

First what are we dealing with?
1600cc or 1720?
Zeniths? Jetting numbers?

BTW the Stoddard's distributor springs are way to soft! They will never return the idle back down. Two solutions, buy early 911 springs and cut 3 loops off or buy some from us as our will produce the factory curve for the C model.

Since you have "rebuilt" the distributor, lets start there.

Distributor questions
1. What type of slide plate is in the distributor? Hopefully Bakelite and not the white nylon. Bakelite is good, nylon is bad.
2. Based on what Bruce wrote, it sounds like "everything" checked out. But now we are troubleshooting, so we have to know more definitive information. He may have a graph of your distributor's advance curve. Good Intel to know and have.
3. At what RPM does the distributor start to advance. 1 degree @ 1000 rpm, 1200 rpm?
4. What is the total advance of your 022?
5. Set points at .016, also make sure that points bracket at the inside wall of the distributor housing is parallel and not touching or near the breaker plate.
6. Set timing at 5* BTDC. tighten clamp, but leave it loose enough to hand adjust

Start the car. If it starts, but jumps to high RPMs, disconnect the throttle rods on both carbs. RPM still high, back idle screws off so that they don't touch. RPMs still high, are the throttle shafts stuck partially open? Pull each one closed. RPM still high. Retard the distributor.

I know this is very basic stuff, but assuming anything at this point is just adding to the tail chase.

Let us know the results and answers to the above questions and we move to the next step.

ed
klasse356.com

Here's the advance curve on Robert's 022 from June 2016, measured as he sent it to me. I set dwell within spec. to 48° and the condenser measured 0.301 mFd. The advance curve was nicely within the spec. range, with advance through to high revs and back down smooth and normal.

I'm sure that anyone who has had a distributor from Bruce, like me, will agree that it isn't going to be the problem.

Gentlemen,
Thank you all for your quick replies. Unfortunately, I can't get to the car until tomorrow. I did replace the slide plate in the distributor with a white one from Stoddard, when I was cleaning and rebuilding it. The old "black one", cracked while taking it apart. It did not appear worn, but I assumed the apparent smoothness was due to old age and that was why it was so brittle. When I look for parts, I usually try to find if there are different sources, as I have had many problems with the reproduction or new production parts. Unfortunately, I assumed it was a plastic and I have found they deteriorate with age and NOS isn't always the best course when dealing with some of the plastic pieces that come under tension or pressure?? Is there a source for the bakelite slide plate? Somehow, I don't think that is the issue, but I would rather do it now, if one is available, rather than later.
I did not put the old springs back in to see what the result would be, because it seemed logical that the shorter, new springs from Stoddard should return the weights back to center quicker and easier than the older, longer springs???? I had read several threads about issues with the springs and that was why I had elected to retain the ones that were in the distributor originally.

Will get back with this tomorrow.

Thanks again. Bob Stonerock

Bob,
This is a good start. Stoddard and I both sell the "bakelite" slide plates. I didn't think any of the white nylon ones would be out there still, but there must be. The original plate is a "bakelite" material, but over a very long time it becomes brittle from the heat. The white nylon with high heat, bunches and won't allow the weights to slide properly. So get that changed.
With regards to the springs, it is pretty difficult to set up the advance curve on a distributor without access to a distributor machine. Not saying it can't be done, but it is time consuming with the machine! I think Bruce offered you a "test" distributor. I would take him up on the offer. Install it and that should eliminate the distributor from the equation.

One step at a time, next thing you know your at the top of the mountain.

ed
klasse356.com

Ed,
klasse 356,

Bruce Smith, did the advance curve for me already. I will go back to review my receipt to see if the slide plate is bakelite or plastic. It was white and I am pretty sure I ordered it from Stoddard. It would have been installed a short time before I sent it to Bruce.

bob

If white, it is the plastic, or Teflon, I've heard it called both, and...it will cold flow, to cause the "bunched up" shape, which can impede the flyweight movement. At one time, those were all which were available and I used several. The last two I tried to use, from Stoddard's, likely a dozen years ago, didn't make it past the curve check on the distributor machine, due to curled edge interference issues. You've been given wise council, and you do need the now available bakelite, darker ones. I lightly lube the contact surfaces, with a soft grease, applied "sparingly". The curve, which Bruce shows, is far better than many I've plotted, and is good. I doubt the issue is the distributor,

There is a good tech article process to " rig" the throttle linkage system, on the Word document, created, and posted for our use, by one of "us", read it, and adjust.

Ed made a good point, that of disconnecting the throttle down rods, to adjust the carbs, as that should eliminate the linkage adjustment, as a separate issue.

You state 2000 rpm to 2800 rpm as to the lowest that it would drop. There is not a distributor on earth that can cause that. That sounds like the carburetor has an overflowing float valve or two, maybe caused by an electric fuel pump?

1 November 2018. I chased my tail in circles over the failure to return to a normal idle after the engine warmed up. To review. Distributor cleaned, new parts, etc. and sent to Bruce Smith, where it was noted to produce a good distribution curve. I swapped out the distributor with an 018 to no change. I switched out the carbs to no change. I changed points, condensers, pulled carbs, rechecked float levels, reset valves. Nothing seemed to effect a change except to slightly alter the idle from 1800 to 2200 when it would warm up after driving. To add insult to injury, the arm holding the spring to the weights broke, while I was switching them from Stoddard's Springs, back to the original springs. No one could supply the part I needed, so I managed to reattach it with an Orthodontic Welder. It is holding up, but I suspect it is not totally correct and contributes to the problem that I will talk about a little further on in the saga. I tried to find a replacement distributor, but no one wanted to accept mine as a core with the damaged part. I have a few friends on the lookout for another 022 distributor for me.

Finally, after countless tries, over years, to find someone who knew what they were doing and would look at the problem, I managed to get our local 356 guru to help me. (This was not as easy as it sounds and I will leave it at that.) Murphy is alive and well and sits on both of my shoulders!!!! To make a long story short, he came over, did all the procedures in the same order as I had done countless times. After about 15 minutes of trying to adjust the carbs, he said that something just didn't seem right with the #1 air/mixture screw, as he couldn't get the response from the Zenith carb he was looking for. Things just didn't seem to respond on 2, 3, and 4 either, like he was used to. He proceeded to remove the air/fuel mixture screw and "low and behold", it was bent. MURPHY~!! I had those carbs off and completely disassembled multiple times, not to mention pulling the engine at least 5 times. When had it happened and how???? Anyway, we installed new mixture screws all around and within minutes he had it purring like a kitten. The usual, balancing the carbs, readjusting the connecting rods for the carbs, etc. followed. In 45 minutes, he had it to his satisfaction and it seemed so Smooth and effortless for him. The only thing not cooperating was the idle. He set the static timing at 5 degrees, but the advance at 3000 RPM was too high. It was 33+ degrees. He suggested a compromise at 3.5 degrees static to keep the advance at 3000RPM below 32 degrees. (Stock 1600 cc and all standard C parts.) The idle would hold at 550 RPM and after driving would return to anywhere from 1100RPM down to the 550 RPM level. The engine pulled smoothly and strongly with these settings and I can live with the idle when warm. I would like it to be more consistent, but at least it runs smoothly and returns naturally. He felt there was something wrong with the distributor and suggested I try to find a replacement. (Right!)

To conclude the saga. All the earlier post came back to me. When the car doesn't run right after some time it probably isn't the carbs. I was convinced from all the threads that that had to be my problem. It turned out the coil had gone south sometime between the time I started and I discovered the distributor weights were sticking. Replacing the coil only cured the inability to start the car after it cooled down. (The only way to start it had been to put new plugs in it each time. I couldn't figure out what was going on and assumed the plugs were getting fried by the coil. Just the opposite. The coil wasn't putting out enough to fire them!) In retrospect, it is easy to discern my problem, but little things upset these "Damens" and they are not always kind to us when we try to figure out why they changed their temperament all of a sudden.

All this aside. I would like to mention that #222-382, 1965 C-Coupe is back on the road after 37 years and 58 days. Every piece of the car has been apart and refreshed, some multiple times. A plain vanilla car, but it sure brings a smile to my face to slide behind the wheel again.
I will post the photos if I can?

If anyone has knowledge of a spare part for the 022 distributor, I posted mine with the broken tab for the return spring. Thanks to everyone.

Bob Stonerock

Photos of Distributor arm broken-Any leads? Old 222-382 after 37 years and 58 days of being off the road.

Re. the bent idle mixture screw. Those are very easily bent when loosening or tightening the carburetor nuts when removing/installing the carburetors. Don't feel bad if you think you might have accidentally done it. Many of us have had that experience.

Bob, very interesting saga, happy for you that the car is at last running, why not scavenge a part from a VW distributor? Try a search on The Samba for VW distributors with centrifugal advance. I note that you set your timing at 33 degrees full advance. Why? I set mine at the factory spec of 35 +/- 2 degrees and I run 87 octane even with a big bore kit. I ignore the static as long as my idle is OK and the engine starts easily.