Morning Ouch

356 Porsche-related discussions and questions.
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C J Murray
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Re: Morning Ouch

#76 Post by C J Murray » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:34 pm

My brother in law lives in Rancho Cucamonga. I have to ask him how many $55 cups he has consumed. I hope he doesn't suggest that only a fool would pay that much for a cup of coffee.

Although I am a devoted snob I have not yet graduated to reading Forbes so I thank you for telling the story. It is always interesting to hear about the unusual, the things in life that are not commonly known.

A no reserve auction is a very equitable tool in our free market economy and when an item is described honestly the seller is free of blame for whatever financial harm or benefit that the buyer experiences.

I do read Sports Car Market and that magazine could not exist without containing the writers' opinions of value and wether a car was "well sold" or "well bought". Sometimes, as in the case of the Seinfeld $600k barn find Speedster the opinions were fiercely debated. I didn't get the feeling that the differing opinions were based on snobbery. I don't think they were expressing their opinions to be "not nice". They were speaking to the question of it was "foolish" financially speaking to pay that much money for a car that was way past the point of "that will buff out". We all have opinions when we hear about a price that was paid for a 356. Don't tell me you don't. My opinion that the mud mobile purchase price of $14k is a foolish amount to pay is fair and reasonable. What is not fair and reasonable is for a self promoting business owner to start throwing slurs calling the person with an opinion a not nice snob. I understand that the businessman utilizes this forum as a marketing tool for his business and that it is not good for business when the value of his product is questioned/exposed. I think it is more important to be honest in one's opinions rather than give advice based on selfish profit motivation.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
'67 911 S Original Owner

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Adam Wright
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Re: Morning Ouch

#77 Post by Adam Wright » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:52 pm

Ed Pimm wrote:
Adam Wright wrote:
C J Murray wrote:Adam, I couldn't do to anyone what you did to the poor bastard that bought that car. Go ahead, call me a snob again. I imagine that's all you've got.
I have a story I tell when people laugh at people for buying rough cars and say things like "fool" and "poor bastard".
A friend of mine bought a Porsche in the early 80s, he really really wanted one but he was a service tech at a Porsche dealer, so he didn't have much money, he had some, but not a lot. He searched and searched and finally found the car he wanted, except it had been in a house fire, so half the body was melted, and the motor was gone, but he could afford it and it was the Porsche he wanted. So he paid $10,000 for it, and everyone laughed and laughed, he was such an IDIOT! Well, he has spent the last 30 years restoring the car, little bits at a time. He used to do oil changes on 944's all day every Saturday in his driveway so he could pay the body shop on Monday. He even located his original motor.
So now he has the car almost finished, and I don't think anyone is laughing considering his license plate reads 1B4DEAN, that's right, he owns 550 Spyder 0054.
So calling someone a fool now because you can't see their vision is short sighted. Lots of guys have way more ambition and time than money, and the Porsche world is a better place because of it.
Adam, I couldn't agree with you more. This club is a great source for Porsche enthusiasts to get information, parts and share knowledge to restore, drive and maintain their cars. We should all encourage the rescue of any 356. The only thing I disagree with you is calling the previously quoted member a snob, a--hole would be a better description.

Ed
Thanks Ed, I guess you're saying I was being nice to Cliff.
I always need stories for my Barn Find column in the magazine, if you have a good story to share, please let me know.

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Greg Bryan
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Re: Morning Ouch

#78 Post by Greg Bryan » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:25 pm

Folks - can we please move on from the personal attacks? A little goes a long way - and it's been more than 'a little' ...
I don't want to lock this thread because it has a very interesting basis notwithstanding the petty feud that is running through it.
Thank you in advance for your compliance.
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C J Murray
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Re: Morning Ouch

#79 Post by C J Murray » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:59 pm

Greg Bryan wrote:I don't want to lock this thread because it has a very interesting basis notwithstanding the petty feud that is running through it.
Feud, what feud?

Quoting Jim Schreager(spelling?) of SCM and the Registry..."If you can't afford to buy a good one you probably can't afford to buy a bad one either."
Last edited by C J Murray on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
'67 911 S Original Owner

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Adam Wright
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Re: Morning Ouch

#80 Post by Adam Wright » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:22 pm

At least this one is an A, and was only a couple of hours away, getting it out wasn't fun, but another car saved.
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I always need stories for my Barn Find column in the magazine, if you have a good story to share, please let me know.

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C J Murray
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Re: Morning Ouch

#81 Post by C J Murray » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:35 pm

Getting back on subject...

How much would you budget for getting your newly purchased Mud-mobile to "driver" level function? What is your opinion?

Based on my restoration experience here are my guesses...


Engine rebuild- 10-15k
trans rebuild- 4-8k
suspension and brakes- 4-8k
electrical and lighting- 3-6k
glass and chrome- 3-6k
interior- 4-8k
paint(driver level)- 8-12k

sub-total $63k

rust repair, new panels and metal straightening- I would guess well above $100k but I have never started with anything that far gone. Starting with a mostly solid and straight car costs around $20k to get ready for the painter. Has anybody here had a shop fix a car this bad? How much?

cost of the car- $14k plus shipping $1-2k US, more overseas

So 63+20+16=$99k, but the metal-man will blow a hole in that budget.

Instead, lets say Mr Mud-mobile is a renaissance man and has the skills to do all the labor. How much will be spent on all the parts and outside services that require special equipment like chrome and machining?

What do you think? Jim and some others here would know better than I.
Last edited by C J Murray on Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car - Finally Finished!
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'64 Elva Courier mk4T
'67 911 S Original Owner

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Jim Liberty
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Re: Morning Ouch

#82 Post by Jim Liberty » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:22 pm

I had an interesting conversation with Ed Wyche (President, 356 Club, S. Cal.) this morning. He has also experienced a shift in the attitudes of the 356 owners, towards more intolerance, and more aggression. We both examined the whys, and discussed we thought were the reasons, and neither could explain the shift.

I have been attending and putting on events and interacting with the "gang" for 40 years, and never had a bad word with anyone until the last few. I had a falling out with a friend, who I restored a car for a number of years ago. All over money. That was my last customer car, for that reason. Since then there have been a number of 356ers that are unhappy with me. Maybe because I am a Trustee, and they don't like the job I've done, I have no clue.


It is too bad, since for me, this has always been about having fun, together with a love of our little tubs. ..................Jim.
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Vic Skirmants
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Re: Morning Ouch

#83 Post by Vic Skirmants » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:27 pm

Keep loving those tubs, Jim.
Life's too short to put up with people. I've never had a tub drive me to drink.

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Morning Ouch

#84 Post by Doug McDonnell » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:30 pm

Jim I think it reflects the polarization of the country as a whole. No one compromises any more it seems. Sad.
1965 356C There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Re: Morning Ouch

#85 Post by Adam Wright » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:31 pm

Jim Liberty wrote:I had an interesting conversation with Ed Wyche (President, 356 Club, S. Cal.) this morning. He has also experienced a shift in the attitudes of the 356 owners, towards more intolerance, and more aggression. We both examined the whys, and discussed we thought were the reasons, and neither could explain the shift.

I have been attending and putting on events and interacting with the "gang" for 40 years, and never had a bad word with anyone until the last few. I had a falling out with a friend, who I restored a car for a number of years ago. All over money. That was my last customer car, for that reason. Since then there have been a number of 356ers that are unhappy with me. Maybe because I am a Trustee, and they don't like the job I've done, I have no clue.


It is too bad, since for me, this has always been about having fun, together with a love of our little tubs. ..................Jim.
I can tell you of two specifics that I have witnessed in the last 10 years.
The first is more general but over the last 5 or so years I get a lot of calls from guys looking to buy cars, but they must be "investment grade". They aren't Porsche guys, or even car guys, they are just money guys looking to park money and make money. So these guys aren't interested in the culture, history, or knowledge of a group like this and only bring their cars out so people can fawn on them. This is a shift in the culture that I've noticed.
The second instance is more personal. I know of one Trustee meeting where the discussion was how to keep the "Adam Element" out of the club. Wanting to work as a governing body to exclude a certain perceived element of the club is a new trend and not a good one.
Take this whole big picture together the culture is changing, money changes everything, and everybody, sad but true.
I always need stories for my Barn Find column in the magazine, if you have a good story to share, please let me know.

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Re: Morning Ouch

#86 Post by Jim Liberty » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:36 pm

CJ, your numbers are right on. A solid car that needs body and metal work (Most do) usually runs me $175 to $200K, out of pocket, and nine months of my time at no cost. I have all the facilities, vendors, service providers near my shop. Quite honestly, they are not moderate priced guys, and are always busy, but they turn out work I consider tops, and good value. That is the key word for me "Value". Because of that, I'm not able to produce "Driver" cars. So when I want to do a 2-CV, or Fiat 500, I'm behind the 8 Ball from the start. That is OK. In most cases, people complain about cost once, but poor quality every time they look at the car.
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Re: Morning Ouch

#87 Post by Jim Liberty » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:39 pm

Doug, that is an interesting thought, and just may be right on.
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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Morning Ouch

#88 Post by Doug McDonnell » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:40 pm

I bought a 2-CV new in Italy when I was in the Air Force. Quirkiest weird car I have ever owned. And I loved it. Just out of school so I couldn't afford a 356 at the time.
1965 356C There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Re: Morning Ouch

#89 Post by Dan Epperly » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:00 pm

I think it depends on the level of restoration you want and how much you can do yourself and what you are starting with. I literally did everything on my car myself with the exception of upholstering the front seats and including the $5k purchase price I did the car for $20k.
I was able to use my original interior panels, I wasn't missing any parts other than the rear quarter trim pieces that go below the quarter windows which Adam so generously sent me for free
My trans needed no work. I built the engine but had the carbs done by CFi and the machine work done on the engine.
Only metal that needed replaced was the floor pan patches and the battery box.
Had some chrome work done, door frames, bumper guards, etc.
The car won't win any prizes and it's just another shiny B coupe that no one looks at at Porsche gatherings, but I don't care, I wanted a nice looking car for my wife and I to tour in and for me to drive to work once a week instead of my beaters. I think throwing big numbers out there might have the effect of scaring off guys who would like to restore an affordable project car themselves, so here's the other side of the story.

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Re: Morning Ouch

#90 Post by Martin Benade » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:41 pm

I think cars like that are strictly for someone to fix up in their spare time. If they buy it and pay someone to fix it, they are crazy, there are much cheaper ways to get a car. Regardless I have no problem with someone spending as much of their own money as they see fit to buy such a car. Also people make mistakes all the time, but that is not the sellers fault. That is what buyer's remorse is for.

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