It is currently Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:15 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:42 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:12 pm
Posts: 541
Location: Sunshine Coast Australia
Nice approach Dan. Interesting thread in most ways. I have always leaned towards finding the best car at the start in terms of the integrity of the body, and minimal if any rust. I was lucky in that respect with my one-owner 356 which was superb and had no evident rust and after two years of going over every possible nook and cranny I have found only a few very small spots of surface rust. However, in most climates the dry conditions enjoyed by my car for 55 years just don't exist. In the 911 world we see more and more cars being brought back from the dead and this does affect values as more cars are subsequently on the market. Some are better than new. It depends on how much you want one of these old cars, what balance you seek between preservation and restoration and importantly what it is worth to you in terms of money and, like you Dan and me, your time. If you farm out the body work and mechanical work, then a different equation is needed. The final market value is a consideration but for many of us, is the icing on the cake.

_________________
Merv
TYP356
1963 356B T6
1968 911 SWB
2012 Audi A6 3.0L Bi-Turbo Quattro


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:04 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Dan, that is very impressive and says a lot about your talents and dedication. Most people give up when they get into a project that big. I have gotten some good deals on cars that overwhelmed their owner.

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:36 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 22
Hello Team Registry

BaT Update

Remember, this is how the thread started.

Just to let you know, the little 62 coupe will be on its way to Sunny California next week.

May be listed in a few years as a "California Car" for sale :)

Most likely will be used to keep others on the road.

_________________
 
Drive for Fun
Southern 356 Owners Group
678-524-7842
 

 
 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:50 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Jim, what do you think the parts and materials costs would be for the Mud-mobile?

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:38 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 7451
Tag: KTF
Dan Epperly wrote:
I think it depends on the level of restoration you want and how much you can do yourself and what you are starting with. I literally did everything on my car myself with the exception of upholstering the front seats and including the $5k purchase price I did the car for $20k.
I was able to use my original interior panels, I wasn't missing any parts other than the rear quarter trim pieces that go below the quarter windows which Adam so generously sent me for free
My trans needed no work. I built the engine but had the carbs done by CFi and the machine work done on the engine.
Only metal that needed replaced was the floor pan patches and the battery box.
Had some chrome work done, door frames, bumper guards, etc.
The car won't win any prizes and it's just another shiny B coupe that no one looks at at Porsche gatherings, but I don't care, I wanted a nice looking car for my wife and I to tour in and for me to drive to work once a week instead of my beaters. I think throwing big numbers out there might have the effect of scaring off guys who would like to restore an affordable project car themselves, so here's the other side of the story.


Yeah, I have to agree with people throwing big numbers around. I was at a PCA meeting recently and a guy said something to the effect of, "You can't paint a Porsche for less than $20,000."
I pointed out my brother had his 87 Carrera painted for $5000, with a color change. After 5 years it still looks like the day it was painted, and it looked good that day! Another guy asked him if he owned a paint shop, he didn't get the joke...
But seriously, I know plenty of guys in this club who painted their cars in their garage, with off the shelf equipment. The bigger picture is there isn't much on a 356 a regular dude can't figure out. Buy a Pellow book to do the motor, buy a Kellog book to do the body, buy a $500 welder, and start messing it up, then re-doing it, then on the third try get it right. While I wouldn't tell a normal handy guy to try and wrap his head around a 4-cam, a normal pushrod motor is not rocket science.
Bottom line, we need the guys who are broke and crazy to take on the rough cars, it's those guys who will make the cars for the next generation. Think of all the cobbed up rough drivers that are getting a full restoration now, aren't we glad someone did whatever it took to fix them, so they could be restored now. Case in point, we got this car in a few years ago, check out the custom floors! But under all that ugly is a true SC. Aren't we all glad someone welded in a street sign to keep get to work, rather than scrap the car. As a SC, it will now be fully restored and everyone is better off with one more Porsche 356 on the roads. New floors just went in.


Attachments:
mattcar.JPG
mattcar.JPG [ 711.84 KiB | Viewed 372 times ]
50mph.JPG
50mph.JPG [ 116.75 KiB | Viewed 372 times ]
50mphnew.JPG
50mphnew.JPG [ 615.79 KiB | Viewed 372 times ]

_________________
“O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey'd monster, which doth mock
The meat it feeds on.”


― William Shakespeare, Othello
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
All those body shops that are charging more than $5k for paint must be thieves.
Adam Wright wrote:
he didn't get the joke...
Most people don't possess your high level of knowledge OR maybe their standards are higher than Maaco quality.
Adam Wright wrote:
there isn't much on a 356 a regular dude can't figure out.
Very true but any signs of sub-standard work will destroy the value of the finished car. The finished car can't look like it was once owned by Waste Management if the owner expects to cash in on the "pot of gold" that you promised.

In a hobby where owners obsess over stamped lid numbers and the shape of cheesehead screws you can't suggest that spending $14k on a pile of scrap and restoring it in your home garage with limited resources will result in a car that can be sold for anything close to market value. "If you can't afford a good one you probably can't afford a bad one either."

Speaking of matching number lids, I spoke to a gentleman yesterday who has had a hood stamped by a well known restorer of 356s. My my! Hypocrisy is everywhere!

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:48 am 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 7451
Tag: KTF
C J Murray wrote:
All those body shops that are charging more than $5k for paint must be thieves.
Adam Wright wrote:
he didn't get the joke...
Most people don't possess your high level of knowledge OR maybe their standards are higher than Maaco quality.
Adam Wright wrote:
there isn't much on a 356 a regular dude can't figure out.
Very true but any signs of sub-standard work will destroy the value of the finished car. The finished car can't look like it was once owned by Waste Management if the owner expects to cash in on the "pot of gold" that you promised.

In a hobby where owners obsess over stamped lid numbers and the shape of cheesehead screws you can't suggest that spending $14k on a pile of scrap and restoring it in your home garage with limited resources will result in a car that can be sold for anything close to market value. "If you can't afford a good one you probably can't afford a bad one either."

Speaking of matching number lids, I spoke to a gentleman yesterday who has had a hood stamped by a well known restorer of 356s. My my! Hypocrisy is everywhere!


Hmmm, where to start.
I guess the basic point I was trying to make is while you can spend $20,000+ on a paint job, you don't have to if you want a decent paint job. That Twin Grill roadster that sold at auction a few months ago proved you can spend $400,000 restoring one of these cars, but again, you don't have to in order to enjoy one of these cars.
A Maaco paint job is $399, it's not comparable to a quality $5000 paint job. I've seen plenty Maaco job's, I used to run cars in there 3 at a time when I was in college. They look ok, for about a year, then you better get buffin! The $5000 paint job I was referring to on my brother's car looks very nice, and has withstood the test of time, it's been 5 years and it still looks great.
As far as fraud being everywhere, you're right about that, heck, you can even have one of our most well known vendors stamp dates in your new wheels, how's that for fraud! But just because some are doing it, doesn't mean all should do it.
My last point is to your point about doing a car yourself like Dan did and hoping to sell it for market value. I think you're losing sight of the goals of many of the owners of 356's, to drive and enjoy the car, with little or no thought on if they ever sell it. I'm like my man Davie Jones with the cool accent, my relatives can figure out how much my car is worth, after I'm dead.

_________________
“O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey'd monster, which doth mock
The meat it feeds on.”


― William Shakespeare, Othello


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:00 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Adam Wright wrote:
I think you're losing sight of the goals of many of the owners of 356's, to drive and enjoy the car, with little or no thought on if they ever sell it.
So it was simply over the top marketing to say this in your ad?
Quote:
The last piece of good news is the car is being offered at no reserve, so if you have more ambition than money and really want a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, this matching numbers car might make you a leprechaun! "
There really is no pot of gold waiting for the buyer of the Mud-mobile.

The way this thread started is like many others where posters evaluate the value of a 356 that is for sale. What was offered by BaT and then matched by you with the Mud-mobile was horrible. That is how the opening post came to be, horrible car for sale. I can't remember a post on this thread that took the position that either of the two cars in question had any financial upside. A couple of us are certain that restoring the car would result in a loss, a big loss. Most people are not going to offer an opinion here especially with both sellers watching and with one seller protecting his business interests. A couple of posters have started with much better car and have modest money and many hours of sweat equity invested in nice drivers. Their cars were not half buried in mud for 40 years so it was not the same situation.

Only one person will benefit from the Mud-mobile, the one that dug it out of the ground. He deserves the money for his hard work and risk taking but do not be fooled by his advice to you that he is selling you a money making opportunity.

Let's move on and evaluate some Beverly Hills Car Club offerings. How about a forum named "Waste Management"?

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:06 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:00 am
Posts: 7451
Tag: KTF
C J Murray wrote:
Adam Wright wrote:
I think you're losing sight of the goals of many of the owners of 356's, to drive and enjoy the car, with little or no thought on if they ever sell it.
So it was simply over the top marketing to say this in your ad?
Quote:
The last piece of good news is the car is being offered at no reserve, so if you have more ambition than money and really want a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, this matching numbers car might make you a leprechaun! "
There really is no pot of gold waiting for the buyer of the Mud-mobile.

The way this thread started is like many others where posters evaluate the value of a 356 that is for sale. What was offered by BaT and then matched by you with the Mud-mobile was horrible. That is how the opening post came to be, horrible car for sale. I can't remember a post on this thread that took the position that either of the two cars in question had any financial upside. A couple of us are certain that restoring the car would result in a loss, a big loss. Most people are not going to offer an opinion here especially with both sellers watching and with one seller protecting his business interests. A couple of posters have started with much better car and have modest money and many hours of sweat equity invested in nice drivers. Their cars were not half buried in mud for 40 years so it was not the same situation.

Only one person will benefit from the Mud-mobile, the one that dug it out of the ground. He deserves the money for his hard work and risk taking but do not be fooled by his advice to you that he is selling you a money making opportunity.

Let's move on and evaluate some Beverly Hills Car Club offerings. How about a forum named "Waste Management"?


The difference between my car and the one on BAT is my car retained it's original driveline, so once restored it will be worth more than the comparable car that does not retain it's original driveline. That was the pot of gold reference, a bonus of sorts after all your hard work.

_________________
“O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-ey'd monster, which doth mock
The meat it feeds on.”


― William Shakespeare, Othello


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:05 pm 
Registry Trustee
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:47 pm
Posts: 2149
Location: Orange Co., CA
CJ. to answer your question, the spread between labor and parts is anywhere between 50/50 to 75% Labor/25% Parts. Depends on the missing parts, and metal work. That does not include my time which is 100s of hours. But I do it for fun, not profit.

_________________
Jim Liberty


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:02 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Thanks Jim. Sounds right. The only car I have put a real accurate cost on was the one that got totaled in Sacramento. The insurance company asked to see the receipts so I totaled them up. That was educational. That car was a very solid car to start with and I didn't go overboard with the body and paint work because it was going to be our long distance car, run hard and put away wet. I did every bit of mechanical work myself. If John Willhoit had not talked to the adjuster when the wreck was at his shop I probably would not have been paid adequately for the car. Thank you to John. It is definitely true that CA shops that do top quality work are expensive. Doing anything in CA is expensive but a lot of quality craftsmen are there.

If I were a guy on a very tight budget and was not a skilled body and paint guy I would look for a project with body and paint that I could live with but with other needs that are more easily budgeted for. In other words all of the mechanical, electrical, and upholstery shortcomings are more likely to actually cost a predictable sum of money. Furthermore they can be taken in smaller chunks as funds become available.

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:11 pm 
Registry Trustee
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 3:47 pm
Posts: 2149
Location: Orange Co., CA
CJ., everything you say is "Right On".

_________________
Jim Liberty


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:09 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:06 pm
Posts: 384
Location: Houston, Texas
Jim, not EVERYTHING CJ says... :)
Just this topic.
And....
other 356 car comments.

_________________
Mark Roth
65 C Cab (Black/black)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:26 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Mark, that's fair. :(

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Morning Ouch
PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:40 pm 
356 Fan
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Posts: 6395
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Well, what do you think?

https://porsche356registry.org/classifieds/18419

_________________
'55 Cab 1300 Super Race Car
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Race Car-in process
'63 GS 2133 coupe
'67 S Original Owner


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 137 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group