Problem with stainless steel muffler

[Thomas Sottile]

I had purchase a stainless steel muffler for my 64 SC about 2 years ago. and found out the bracket to mount the muffler in place,was about 1 inch off on both sides and the attaching exhaust pipes were too long. All those things I was able to work out however now the mounting flange weld has broken. I am a little disappointed with the $1,000 muffler has any one else experience this poor craftsmanship?. I have only put 1,500 miles on it.

[James Learmonth]

Thomas,
My disappointment with replacement mufflers has been with Dansk mufflers. I attempted to install two mufflers from different suppliers with no success. They didn't fit. Both suppliers were willing to accept the returns. Thank you. My third Dansk muffler almost fit and with a little brute force and awkwardness it took its place. About a month later the exhaust leaks started to appear. The flange at the No.2 exhaust then both joints to the J pipes. I contacted Eisenmann NA muffler through IND Distribution, Lake Zurich, IL. They took my order and contacted Eisenmann in Germany for the muffler. They do not stock this muffler but fabricate one for order. The tech in Germany checked with me to learn if the engine case or heads had been machined in any way to affect the dimensions and then went to work. About two months later I received my muffler(ceramic coated, an option), the S pipes clamps and nuts and bolts. $1415 USD delivered to you doorstep. That was yesterday. I unpacked it admired the workmanship and the Eisenmann badge spot welded to the body. It was a slip fit to install single handed and looks and sounds great. I never thought that I would pay that much for a muffler but I have never been this pleased with the product.

Info@ind-distribution.com

IND Distribution
908 Donata Court
Lake Zurich, IL 60047

866.963.4520

Cat Choe was the representative that handled my order. She was great. mention my name.

James Learmonth
Houston,TX
65C Coupe

[Edwin Ek]

Thomas, who is the manufacturer? There are a few.

[Jeffrey Leeds]

I have had the GDP Concept-1 SS muffler on my car for 3 driving seasons and more than 5000 miles with no issues. It fit the first time with no adjustments needed. The copper flange nuts I used remain tight, and in fact have never needed a retightening.

- Jeff

[Thomas Sottile]

Update:Tom, I want to first of all say is how sorry I am that you have had this
terrible experience regarding your muffler. I also want to thank you for
contacting us and giving us the opportunity to fix the problem without going
out to the masses and slamming Zim's & M&K. If I could somehow get all of
your time back, I would absolutely love to, but I don't know how to do that.
The best way I can fix it now is to get the issues taken care of and then in
the future, if you will ask for me and remind me of the subject I will be
happy to do the best I can to discount other items you might purchase from
us to try to assist you in getting back some kind of value for your
troubles.

I want you to know that I sent a message to Brian Bodart at M&K today after
our conversation and he has already sent me a reply and offer of some help.
It is below so you can know what he has told me. First is the message I
sent him and then below that is his reply.

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Brian, I have a very unhappy customer that we sold one of your 356 mufflers
back in 10/2014. We sold him one and soon thereafter we got a call from him
upset because the tab mounting flanges were welded on in the wrong position.
We told him at that time if he wanted them fixed he would have to send it
back to us, and we would send it on to you, the manufacturer and get them
fixed. I am sure you remember us / you having some issues with this same
problem.

He also complained the 2 outlet pipes were too long to be used with the "S"
pipes. He did not want to take the time and trouble to take it back off the
car, box it up carefully, and send it back to have all of this done. I
suggested to him at that time to simply make some spacers, (as he said he
was handy) to take up the space where the brackets were too wide, and to
simply cut off the length of the pipes that were too long. He agreed to do
it all himself, but was not happy that he was having to do all of this to an
expensive brand new part which should have fit in the beginning. He says
the pipes are still a little too long. I can't say I blame him especially
since we sent you a complete Porsche 356 engine on a pallet so M&K could
make the first one originally.

Now, today he has once again called, and is very upset that not only has he
had to endure all of that, but now one of the flanges has broken off the
pipe! He claims it looks like it is silver soldered and not welded. I told
him I was 99% sure that they were never, ever silver soldered but were TIG
welded. He insists this is not the case. Anyway he is plenty upset and does
not want to again have to go through the trouble to take it back off the
car, pack it carefully and return it for repairs. He just wanted to buy a
high quality muffler so he could enjoy a full service life for the money he
spent and has only driven the car less than 1500 miles. I told him that M&K
really needs to see what had failed so they can see first hand what might
have happened and therefore give them feedback for future use to insure
these types of mistakes can be avoided in the future. He agreed he would
remove it from the car and pack it up. I did tell him if the car was here in
the DFW area I would be doing it for free for him. I also told him he would
not be out the expense of return shipping to us as I would send a UPS return
service tag to pick it up.

Here is where we are now. He is going to give me whatever the lengths of the
outlet pipes he want them to be so they can be cut properly. He is going to
get it off the car & carefully packed and ready to ship. Can I count on you
Brian to send him a return service tag and get it returned directly to you?
It really makes no sense for me to get it sent here, only to reship it to
you wasting more time and costing more. Can I count on you to make my
customer happy after all of this he has gone through? I personally would
like to see him just get a new part with all of the necessary fixes for all
that is wrong. I realize this may not be how you want to approach this
situation. Please let me know your thoughts. I just hate that this guy has
been sent though the ringer like this. At least he still calls me. He has
been buying from me since 2001, but this was the last item he bought in
2014. I would like to keep him as a customer.

Please call me,

Dennis

Dennis W Butts
Zim's Autotechnik
1804 Reliance Pkwy
Bedford Tx 76021
Ph 817 267 4451
or 800 356 2964
Fx 817 545 2002
Email: Dennis@allzim.com

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His response to my message below

Dennis,
Yes I remember the issue well. We had one batch of mufflers that was
off-spec which you helped us identify and fix. As a result we built a brand
new fixture and have had no further issues. We will never know what
happened to screw up the original fixture, age, abuse, all of the above.

Yes please send me the email address and physical address of your customer
and I will send a call tag. Once the off spec muffler is received we will
review and do what is best for all involved. I am out of MKM41 mufflers at
the moment but we are building more. Should have them completed in a couple
weeks if it decided that a new one is needed.

Sorry for your trouble and thank you for your help with this. We don't need
to have bad product out there and you don't need the grief!

Brian Bodart
RarlyL8 Motorsports
M&K Exhaust

[Edwin Ek]

Seems to me, if M&K were serious about providing good customer service, that it should give Thomas a new muffler for free and a refund for the first purchase.

After all, Thomas was doing the quality control which should have been done at M&K. His time and aggravation are being treated as if they were free, when of course they are not.

It is worrisome that M&K is in the dark about why its manufacturing process failed. How will it know in the future if there is a problem again? Only by more customer complaints?

So worrisome that I, who was considering an M&K stainless steel muffler for my B, will look elsewhere.

[David Jones]

Edwin, I look at it from a positive aspect. When you consider how many manufacturers just wash their hands of complaints it is refreshing to find one that goes the extra mile to fix these problems. I doubt they had a 356 to do the R&D on so it is incumbent on he customer to do his research when using aftermarket parts. Since my early days with VW's before the 356 I used parts that were not 100% and accepted that as part of the difficulties one can encounter when going to the aftermarket.
I do agree that perhaps M&K or Zims should compensate Thomas for all the hassle though. Still with what they are doing that is better than being stuck with a bad muffler. I had an experience recently with GK restorations which was resolved in similar fashion and that 4 years after the fact. The initial negative experience through no fault of GK was turned into a positive by employees going the extra mile.

[Wes Bender]

Unless it is a very simple (or possibly inexpensive) thing, I hesitate to take it upon myself to correct a manufacturer's product. When you do so, it is very likely that you are voiding any warranty. If there is something wrong in one place, it is conceivable that there are others that may crop up. I have found it much better to contact the manufacturer or his rep and have them take care of the problem.

I'm not saying that this necessarily applies in Tom's case and I'm not criticizing him, but it is something to think about when you encounter an inferior product.

[Edwin Ek]

Dennis of Zim's said that they sent an entire engine to M&K to assist in development.

All too often merchants would like to wash their hands, but there are consumer protection laws. Of course going down that road is almost always a time-consuming mess. A simpler fix is available if you make the purchase with a credit card. The credit-card companies are very good at intervening when dealing with a less than satisfactory purchase.

M&K sold a defective product. At a minimum, It should make it right or return Thomas's money. It should do more if it wants to retain goodwill and preserve its reputation.

[C J Murray]

I think this problem will never go away. It is way too easy to screw up the manufacture of these mufflers due to the multitude of dimensions that must be correct in order to escape leaks. Add to that the fact that they are suspended by their head pipes and that there is little room for error of the tail pipes.

It seems that the money charged should be adequate to get the product made accurately but they rarely fit well.

The flanges must be parallel yet staggered to compensate for a depth difference between the left bank and the right bank of cylinders. That should be easy yet many are out of wack and the flange gaskets often leak. Try Remflex gaskets, but you shouldn't have to. Often the holes on the flanges do not line up because the flange is cocked or because the distance side to side from one head to the other is wrong. Some of this could be from engine rebuilding and machining, or not. The short pipes from the flanges to the muffler do not want to "adjust". Why hasn't one of the manufacturers tries oversized holes or slotted holes to allow for some variation?

The 2 slip joints are more forgiving because the J-pipes have a little flex but I will never understand how a real manufacturer could make the pipes so large that no sealant or clamp could possibly seal the joint. Dansk mufflers do not even fit Dansk J-pipes! At least they didn't in the past.

Why are there so many cracks where pipes enter the muffler and where heat shields are welded in place? Wrong materials? Bad welds? Shouldn't that be easy to figure out, at least for the big manufacturers?

Speaking of small manufacturers, why do I think that there is no baffling for tuning inside their mufflers? I don't really know but they never show the construction of their product even when asked.

My experience is that the mild steel Dansk works well and holds up ok if you can massage it to fit the car well enough to stop leaking.

The polished stainless Dansk shook itself apart in less than 20k miles with leaks at every weld.

The GDP stainless has not been in service long(3k) but it fit well. It has very high quality welds like a motorcycle exhaust and beautiful pipe bends. They don't offer a version to take stock S-pipes which I would have preferred. They have the GT look and the Abarth look. Concept 1 was selling them for a little over $500 which was a big discount. I have no idea what is inside it and I have not dyno tested it but at least I don't have any more backfires, yet.

[Jeffrey Gamble]

http://www.burnsstainless.com/stainlesssteel.aspx

Looks like their is range-selection of Stainless qualities..

[Steve Hatfield]

FWIW my ten year old Stebro (Canadian) all stainless quad-piped muffler has stood up very well. It's fit is so good that J pipe clamps really are not needed and install was a breeze.
The not so good points are:
Availability (second hand now)
Reduced ground clearance
Non-stock appearance

The good points in addition to fitment and robust construction:
Perceived power improvement
Robust sound
Sporting appearance
Minimal to nonexistent corrosion