Front suspension
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- 356 Fan
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Front suspension
How much motion is normal between the spindle and the king pin?
- Doug McDonnell
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Re: Front suspension
If when "rocking" the tire at 12 and 6 O'clock you can see movement in king pins /link pins then they need renewing.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.
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Re: Front suspension
Not much @ all, but make sure the "rocking" isn't in the link pins. If you're checking it/them on the bench, you'll be able to see if the movement is excessive; Also vertical movement should be very near zero unless the shim spacing is worn. This would be redone by removing the kingpin for fitment --you'll need a hydraulic press!
I add a second zerk fitting to each end to separate the greasing; If the link pins are worn, they'll get grease 1st
and the kingpin ends won't--or vice versa!
I add a second zerk fitting to each end to separate the greasing; If the link pins are worn, they'll get grease 1st
and the kingpin ends won't--or vice versa!
- Greg Bryan
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- Wes Bender
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Re: Front suspension
To check for wheel bearing wear as Greg suggests, movement only in the 6 - 12 o'clock Axis is link pin/shim wear. Movement in the 9 - 3 o'clock axis is probably bearings.
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.....
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Re: Front suspension
I have the rotor and dust shields off so I'm seeing the spindle move ever so slightly on the vertical pin.
- Wes Bender
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Re: Front suspension
OK, this sounds like king pin wear, rather than the link pins. Do you have the factory service manual for your car? That should give you the wear tolerances. If you have to replace the king pin bushings, it's a job best left to a properly equipped shop.
The "B" manual calls out a sideways wear limit of the kingpin of 0.1 mm.
The "B" manual calls out a sideways wear limit of the kingpin of 0.1 mm.
Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.....
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Re: Front suspension
Make sure you don't have any slack in the tie-rods when checking in the 3-9 position. Difficult to check any king-pin wear
if the outer tie-rod is disconnected. You'll have to look or feel any pin movement w/your finger, but @ this stage, just disassemble the unit if it hasn't been done since the car left the factory. As mentioned earlier, any vertical movement will need the shim re-fitment besides the king-pin bushing replacement and reaming them to fit the existing pin (if it's not worn), or a new pin.
if the outer tie-rod is disconnected. You'll have to look or feel any pin movement w/your finger, but @ this stage, just disassemble the unit if it hasn't been done since the car left the factory. As mentioned earlier, any vertical movement will need the shim re-fitment besides the king-pin bushing replacement and reaming them to fit the existing pin (if it's not worn), or a new pin.
- Al Zim
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Re: Front suspension
Without the factory test fixtures obtaining "new" specifications on the front end is a matter of luck. The rebuild kit does not include the shim that is used to compensate for the manufacturing discrepancies between the width of the spindle and the opening in the link pin carrier. We keep a stock of those and sell them on an exchange basis. The spindle needs to be checked to make sure it is straight and the Pittman arm is positioned properly. Measure the off set on your trailing arms as you would do to check the offset and set the camber. If you are out of specification probably you have the lower trailing arm bent. If there are grooves in the arm (usually on the inner end) then the arm is bent.
Zim's Offers rebuilding service with a complete set of factory tools to check the tolerances of the components.
The tools and method used to check the trailing arm tolerance as shown in the Registry will not work properly.
NEVER USE A PRESS TO REMOVE THE KING PIN. There is a strong possibility that you will bend the link pin carrier. al zim
Zim's Offers rebuilding service with a complete set of factory tools to check the tolerances of the components.
The tools and method used to check the trailing arm tolerance as shown in the Registry will not work properly.
NEVER USE A PRESS TO REMOVE THE KING PIN. There is a strong possibility that you will bend the link pin carrier. al zim
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- David Jones
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Re: Front suspension
Al, the factory manual shows the king pin being removed with a hydraulic press. How else can you remove it?
If I had known I would live this long I would have pushed the envelope a little harder.
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715
Cymru am byth
David Jones #9715
- Al Zim
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Re: Front suspension
Usually this requires a great deal of heat and an air chisel. You will need to get a strong chisel and an extra long bit. This is not for the faint of heart! Do not use a press on assembly. Once you bend the link pin carrier you cannot fix it. al zim
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- Vic Skirmants
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Re: Front suspension
That air chisel can mushroom the end of the kingpin. I hope nobody listens to your bad advice!
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Re: Front suspension
Al, the king pin is pressed out of the stub axle, and should pass through one end the link pin carrier without causing it any harm.Al Zim wrote:NEVER USE A PRESS TO REMOVE THE KING PIN. There is a strong possibility that you will bend the link pin carrier.
Yes, it usually requires a good deal of force. The factory recommends immersing the entire assembly in heated oil, but it's a mess to do so and not really necessary.
Pressing the two king pin bushings into the carrier is when most damage occurs, if not done correctly.
Jon Bunin
- Martin Benade
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Re: Front suspension
And beyond hot oil, "a great deal of heat" is not a good idea.
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- Al Zim
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Re: Front suspension
I started doing 356 work in 1962 I was 19 years old. Even then in Southwester Ohio king pins were stuck in spindles. I broke the shop press which was not much of a press trying to get them apart. Now we have a 70 ton press which still cannot push the king pins out of the spindle even with the carrier removed.
If you think hot oil (or even kroil) will penetrate the metal to metal bond the spindle and the king pin have in common it will not. Addressing Vic's comment about the air chisel expanding the metal of the king pin, this is a piece of very high quality steel. Touch it to a bench grinder and it will throw a lot of sparks. I have never had this happen. I also use heat to straighten the Pittman arm. Usually it is the right side one that gets bent when the car bumps a curb. Try to find a reasonably priced 356C piece. I usually fix those for about 15% of a good used one.
When the 356 was no longer in vogue I purchased all the test fixtures I could find. Most shops do not have these fixtures. Instructions in the registry on how to use one of these devices is incorrect.
I cannot reiterate how important how important it is to have the car properly aligned. We use the Hunter Elite system it can get the rear wheels to follow the front ones. Which I do not believe you can do with string. al zim
If you think hot oil (or even kroil) will penetrate the metal to metal bond the spindle and the king pin have in common it will not. Addressing Vic's comment about the air chisel expanding the metal of the king pin, this is a piece of very high quality steel. Touch it to a bench grinder and it will throw a lot of sparks. I have never had this happen. I also use heat to straighten the Pittman arm. Usually it is the right side one that gets bent when the car bumps a curb. Try to find a reasonably priced 356C piece. I usually fix those for about 15% of a good used one.
When the 356 was no longer in vogue I purchased all the test fixtures I could find. Most shops do not have these fixtures. Instructions in the registry on how to use one of these devices is incorrect.
I cannot reiterate how important how important it is to have the car properly aligned. We use the Hunter Elite system it can get the rear wheels to follow the front ones. Which I do not believe you can do with string. al zim
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