356 / 356A Speedster 81216

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Alex Finigan
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356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#1 Post by Alex Finigan »

I have this Pre-A Speedster that we're going to send to auction at Bonhams at PB.
It's a car that has been off the road since 1999, and it has a period correct 1600N, but not numbers matching.
It runs well, but needs a thorough going through.
I sent for the COA, and it comes back as a 356A, built on Jan. 4, 1956.
Hmmmm, I've been doing this a loooong time, and always thought big model changes, as in 356 to 356A, took place after the August vacation.
But, obviously, I never checked.
Could there be a mistake in the COA?
I got the Kardex, and yes it was built in Jan.'56.
So it appears to be a Pre-A with one of the first 3 piece case 1600 engines.
My question to you Pre-A guys is, how long into '56 did they build these cars?
It's just more for my own curiosity, and i learn new things everyday.
Take me to school, guys.
Thanks,
Alex
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Alex Finigan
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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#2 Post by Alex Finigan »

COA from Porsche.
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81216 Porsche Certificate of Authenticity.pdf
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Brad Ripley
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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#3 Post by Brad Ripley »

How does the chassis type plate read? Photo of it?
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Chassis plate 356A 1 detail.jpg
Chassis plate Pre A detail 2.jpg

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#4 Post by Jim Stephenson »

Last one 81234 a friend of mine owns 81231 also build date of January 4th 1956 . I

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#5 Post by Brad Ripley »

What is the dashboard instrument configuration of 81216?
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Speedster dash comps.jpg

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Mike Smith
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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#6 Post by Mike Smith »

There are many general facts that needs to be grasped about Porsche production -

1 – Reutter did NOT hand-over the completed bodies to Porsche in chassis number order (or for that matter in Model Type order) for reasons that we can only speculate upon, some Chassis Numbers were weeks behind others, in this hand-over procedure.
This meant that at the point of a model change it was not unusual to have old and new models travelling down the same production line

2 – The next point to grasp is that, at the start of every shutdown, the production line was still full of cars - They were NOT all completed on the Friday night and everybody went home leaving the line empty and ready for a new model in 2 x weeks time

@@@@.

In 1955 the shutdown at Porsche was from the 12th August to the 29th August and on Friday the 12th August 1955 there were approx. 14 unfinished cars left sitting there for final completion in 2 x weeks
The 1st car to be completed AFTER the 1955 shutdown on the 29th August was in fact Speedster 80 807 – an old model

This arrangement is the same for ALL the motor industry (at least it was when I worked in it). Depending upon what changes or maintenance were due to take place during the 2 x week shut-down, would determine whether the cars were actually removed from the production area or just covered up

@@@@

I do not have the dates for 81 216 but I do have the relevant dates for 81 210
81 210 was handed to Porsche by Reutter on – 16/12/55
Porsche completed the car on – 22/12/55
The guarantee commenced on – 4/1/56

Note – It did NOT normally take Porsche a week to complete a vehicle (a day was normally sufficient) – so 81 210 is an example of a car that had some sort of problem during assembly or test.

There was no `real` fixed assembly line at Porsche (as we understand it in today`s Motor Industry) the Porsche cars were each on separate `Dollies` and were pushed as separate entities, by hand, to each assembly station. This allowed Porsche to remove a car from the line, if required, although they would have avoided this if possible – the assembly area was very tight for space and it would have caused some disruption.

I recommend that everybody takes the time to carefully study `Made by Hand` on Youtube
Mike Smith (Essex - UK)

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#7 Post by Alex Finigan »

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, it's definitely a 2 gauge, 356 / 1600 Pre-A.
What piqued my interest was the COA from Porsche calling it a 356A, probably just based on the build date of 1/4/56.
I agree with Mike about build sequences, but had no idea they would drag on that long, and was surprised to learn they were actually building them into '56.
I wonder when the last one was pushed out the door?
Rules weren't as tough in those days, and I know of a few MB 300SL's, which were VERY hard to sell by '62, that were built in 1961, sat in corporate inventory, and titled as '63's, because that's when they were sold.

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#8 Post by James Davies »

Hi Alex, as usual, PCNA's COA is wrong. If you haven't already, read (or re-read) through Don Zingg's chapters in the "Speedster Typ 540" book, as he gives a lot of detail about Speedster production during this period (pg 112 has the specific detail).

Briefly, at the end of 1955 and into Jan 1956, Pre-A Speedsters with 1600 motors were on the same production line as 356A coupes and cabs with 1600 motors. Porsche and Reutter chose not to switch over to the 356A chassis and body for the Speedster until well after the coupes and cabs had switched, as there were unresolved issues with defrosters and other areas.

As Jim mentions above, the last pre-A car was 81234, which also had a Kardex date of Jan 4, 1956. Speedster 82001 was the first 356A Speedster. A slight wrinkle is that 82002 was built on a pre-A chassis.

Recall too that the Kardex date was usually several days after completion of the production of the car at Porsche, and as Mike says above, chassis were not completed in order. Reutter started the cars in chassis number order, but definitely didn't finish them in chassis number order. Once Porsche got the bodies from Reutter, they generally were pretty good in getting them through drivetrain, steering, suspension and brake installation at Werk II pretty consistently, though engines were sometimes replaced if a problem was found in testing or there was a last-minute change in a customer order. So for instance, engine number correlates well with production date, much better than chassis number with production date, as engines were built for chassis currently on the Porsche production line, whatever chassis those were.

Sounds like a cool Speedster!

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#9 Post by Alex Finigan »

James Davies wrote:Hi Alex, as usual, PCNA's COA is wrong. If you haven't already, read (or re-read) through Don Zingg's chapters in the "Speedster Typ 540" book, as he gives a lot of detail about Speedster production during this period (pg 112 has the specific detail).

Briefly, at the end of 1955 and into Jan 1956, Pre-A Speedsters with 1600 motors were on the same production line as 356A coupes and cabs with 1600 motors. Porsche and Reutter chose not to switch over to the 356A chassis and body for the Speedster until well after the coupes and cabs had switched, as there were unresolved issues with defrosters and other areas.

As Jim mentions above, the last pre-A car was 81234, which also had a Kardex date of Jan 4, 1956. Speedster 82001 was the first 356A Speedster. A slight wrinkle is that 82002 was built on a pre-A chassis.

Recall too that the Kardex date was usually several days after completion of the production of the car at Porsche, and as Mike says above, chassis were not completed in order. Reutter started the cars in chassis number order, but definitely didn't finish them in chassis number order. Once Porsche got the bodies from Reutter, they generally were pretty good in getting them through drivetrain, steering, suspension and brake installation at Werk II pretty consistently, though engines were sometimes replaced if a problem was found in testing or there was a last-minute change in a customer order. So for instance, engine number correlates well with production date, much better than chassis number with production date, as engines were built for chassis currently on the Porsche production line, whatever chassis those were.

Sounds like a cool Speedster!
Very interesting, thank you James, i was hoping you'd chime in.
Never too old to learn something new.

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#10 Post by chris romney »

My experience in getting a COA from PCNA for my Speedster with a build date of 11-21-57 might be relevant. I filled out the form, paid My $100 and waited for the COA to arrive. When it arrived, my Speedster was listed as a 1957 model. I called PCNA to find out what was up, as every other COA I'd received had listed cars built after production resumed in late August/early September as models from the following calendar year. In other words, a car built after the break in August of 57 would be a 58 model, which seemed to be common industry practice at the time. I was told by the people in the COA department that PCNA was now trying to standardize things by listing cars as the model year in which they were built even though that hadn't been the practice at the time. When I protested and explained why I thought it was inaccurate, they offered to send me a new COA listing my Speedster as model year 1958 which I believed to be correct. Go figure.
 

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#11 Post by Craig Richter »

My Speedy, 81172, certainly a PreA, is registered as a 1956 356A. I thought this was because he wasn't sold until '56, a not uncommon happening back then, but maybe there's more to it. I should have gotten a Kardex back when they were easy to get and more accurate than COA, but I never did... :(
 

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#12 Post by Jim Karaba »

From what I am gathering is a speedster could very well be a 1956 AND be built on a pre-A chassis and be totally correct.

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#13 Post by James Davies »

That's actually an interesting thing to look into Jim. I suspect it says 1955 on the chassis data tag for for 81216, as it probably completed production in 1955 (Kardex date of Jan 4, 1956). The chassis data plates generally used calendar year as far as I know. Perhaps Alex can verify?

The assigning of "model years" to early Porsche 356 cars has always been problematic, as Porsche themselves didn't do so at the time. They generally used calendar years. They would make a suite of changes on the cars, but these changes were always phased in piecemeal, sometimes over the course of 6 months or more. And in fact the "pattern" of doing big changes in the late fall for the upcoming calendar year only really happened in Oct 1952 and Sep 1955 for most of the 1950s. The other big production changes (April 1952, May 1954, mid-1957) were not part of that pattern. In fact, I don't think the pattern really existed in the 1950s for Porsche. The "pattern" was really just continuous improvement in my view.

I would think the 1600 pre-A Speedsters as still 1955 cars, but I'm sure others would say they're 1956 models because of the upgraded 1600 drive trains. I can see it both ways. =)

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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#14 Post by Jim Alton »

Is this the car in question?

Lot 64
1956 PORSCHE 356A 1600 SPEEDSTER
Coachwork by Reutter
US$ 275,000 - 325,000
€240,000 - 280,000
To be sold without reserve

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23977/l ... 120&page=1
 
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1958 Porsche 356A Cabriolet
1965 Porsche 911 Coupé
1966 Volkswagen Type 2
2003 Porsche 986 Boxster

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Chad Comeau
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Re: 356 / 356A Speedster 81216

#15 Post by Chad Comeau »

Hi Alex,
I have 81221, 1600 Super super speedster which is also a 1/4/56 car. All of the CofA's that I have seen for 1600 Pre Speedsters are called 356A's. Perhaps they go off the engine number when they prepare the CofA. Just a guess of course.

Link to 81221 with kardex and CofA.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25077

Chad
Chad T. Comeau
81221
106033

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