Karmann Notchback - Have prices really increased this much?

[Jules Dielen]

A Karmann notchback (or Karmann Hardtop as they are called in German) built by Reutter? I somehow highly doubt it.

[Martin Benade]

Mike, by ignoring the T-6, are you calling this a T-5? The only T-5 thing about it is calling it a 1961 model year, which has to be due to an error somewhere.

[Mike Smith]

No Martin it is a T6 but I was attempting to stimulate a little bit of thought on the Notch scene - in general

Pointing out that Stuttgart do NOT have this car listed as a RHD Car (I checked a month ago)
---- Adding a bit to the RHD Fuel Tank speculation
---- Adding a reminder that there are significant differences between Karmann and Reuter cars that always seems to be ignored but need to be considered when making any comment
---- and trying to keep an open mind on all things Porsche

[Tom Wavrin]

For all the money this car is being advertised, it's history was poorly researched and presented. The T6 Karmann Hardtop production may have started as early as Aug/Sept of 1961 by Karmann with car # 201601 which makes this car the 7th Hardtop T6 of model year 1962. There were 699 T6 Hardtops manufactured. Approximately 30% of the B series cars in model year 1962 got Super engines and, if I had to guess, would expect the Hardtops to have been similarly equipped. It would be interesting to know how may RHD cars were in the mix. I would really like to know at what VIN # the cloisonné Karmann badges started and stopped. I sourced this information from B. Johnson's chassis number list in the back of his authenticity guide.

[Rafael Quepons]

Here is my take on Notchbacks and this Car - I am happy to be shot down

I am going to ignore T6 `s they are a different case

1) – The T5 Notch was the first car produced by Karmann for Porsche – this was in 1961
2) – By 1961 Porsche would have be well aware that there was a new Model coming out in 1962 – The T6
3 - For sure Karmann would also have been aware of the projected new model and it is therefore inconceivable that either they or Porsche would have considered spending the considerable amounts of money, necessary to produce the necessary Press Tools in order to turn out the T5`s for one year. Press Tools are BIG chunks of steel. Karmann may have made the Roof and Pillar sections ?
4) - You could speculate that, Reutter sold the tooling to Karmann. However, that could not possibly happen - Reutter were still churning out normal Cabriolets
5) - Alternative 1 - is that Reutter supplied the bodies to Karmann. If this was the case, they were probably just a primed body (maybe with sound deadening) It was then Karmann`s responsibility to Press the roof and weld this to the Reutter underframe – Paint, Wire and Trim them.
6) - Alternative 2 – is that Reutter supplied all the necessary pressed panels to enable Karmann to assemble the Cabriolet tubs. This would certainly have been commercially attractive to Reutter. It is always more profitable to bang out large quantities of parts rather than the small quantities - and Cabs. were only being produced in relatively small quantities.

7) - If my speculation is correct and this was a joint venture, maybe this is the reason that T5 Notch backs do not have a Coachbuilders badge – Or Do They ? – I have never seen a definitive answer to this question

8) - Is it also possible that Reutter also supplied the tubs for the T6 - I speculate again - Very small numbers but Big Tooling up Costs (confusion - T6`s do have a Coachbuilders badge)

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Ron says – Assuming it is factory

Mike,

Just to expand on possibility number 8

I can't see Reutter providing tubs for the T6 . There are too many subtle differences in panels that are different than the Reutter cars. Maybe certain panels?

Bottle caps on floor pans and seat bottoms, Drain holes...

The Noise texture under the hood like on VW Karmann ghia's , Sound deadening material and finish is also a completely different animal.

Body Bolts. Hood/Hinge brackets bumpers were mostly Kamax 13mm head bolts on the Karmann Hardtop bodies vs the typical 14mm head NSF. (If someone has different let me know) just like on a 1960/61 Ghia.

I imagine Karmann's (for the Hardtops) hardware bins coincided with VW's technical change on affixing body panels. Somewhere in April of 58 VW went to 13 mm head sized bolts vs the 14 we are used to seeing. There's a VW technical bulletin that states this.

[Mike Smith]

Ralfy,

On Note 8 - Thanks for your input - I think that you are probably correct

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Body Bolts. Hood/Hinge brackets bumpers were mostly Kamax 13mm head bolts on the Karmann Hardtop bodies vs the typical 14mm head NSF. (If someone has different let me know) just like on a 1960/61 Ghia.

I imagine Karmann's (for the Hardtops) hardware bins coincided with VW's technical change on affixing body panels. Somewhere in April of 58 VW went to 13 mm head sized bolts vs the 14 we are used to seeing. There's a VW technical bulletin that states this.@@

Thanks for that info also - something else I need to research