How do you establish a fair value of a true barn find?

[C J Murray]

For some reason, when I want to buy a car it is very valuable but when I want to sell one it is not very valuable.

"Barn find" is just a marketing method. We used to call them "junkers". It's sort of like "art" created by pooping on a canvas.

[Emil Wojcik]

"If the price is set by the seller, the buyer has no obligation to inform them they could sell it for more, even if that price is ridiculously low."
True, but Adam and I feel that paying a correct amount is beneficial to sleeping well at night, and feeling good.

Vic, although I said I'm not getting involved in the right vs wrong aspect, I also agree with Adam. I just won't speak for everyone else. And since reputation matters in business, being fair goes a long way.

[Adam Wright]

For some reason, when I want to buy a car it is very valuable but when I want to sell one it is not very valuable.

"Barn find" is just a marketing method. We used to call them "junkers". It's sort of like "art" created by pooping on a canvas.

That's not entirely accurate Cliff, the barn find trend is a direct result of the trend before it, which was over restoring cars. As a result you would go to a show and there were a row of perfect speedsters, some more perfect then when they were new. So guys wanted something different than a perfect one, and the barn find became the trend. Just like in the 80s everyone slant nosed their 911's then in the 2000's everyone back-dated, now everyone is restoring all the back dates and the slant noses back to stock. If you're cars aren't selling, you are picking the wrong time to sell. Timing is everything.

[C J Murray]

I don't think I said I have had a problem selling. The attitude about value differs depending on which side of the transaction you stand is my point.

If I were selling cars for a living and was dragging my inventory out of barns I might have a higher opinion of the phenomenon that drives people to pay nearly $700k for a clapped out Speedster when superb cars sell for under $400k. These $700k cars are not nice original cars with patina, they are used up old jalopies. A truly nice, honest preservation car is worthy of these very high values but the pigs that have sold recently are not.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and free to spend their money as they wish. "Art" is in the eyes of the beholder. There is no conflict here, just opinions.

[Adam Wright]

I don't think I said I have had a problem selling. The attitude about value differs depending on which side of the transaction you stand is my point.

If I were selling cars for a living and was dragging my inventory out of barns I might have a higher opinion of the phenomenon that drives people to pay nearly $700k for a clapped out Speedster when superb cars sell for under $400k. These $700k cars are not nice original cars with patina, they are used up old jalopies. A truly nice, honest preservation car is worthy of these very high values but the pigs that have sold recently are not.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and free to spend their money as they wish. "Art" is in the eyes of the beholder. There is no conflict here, just opinions.

Like I said, one trend is a direct reflection of the last trend, just in the other direction. It started out everyone just had their Speedsters and 356's, decent cars, but not overly restored, then the big money started spending six digits to high end restorers, but then that wasn't enough, so now they want patina. And for the record I've never sold a $700,000 Speedster, but I have pulled some cool cars out of barns.

[Ronald Sieber]

The barn-find movement (I think that it has grown enough to become a movement) may have started with several trends outside of our 356 world, and I have witnessed two directly:
1. Tom Cotter of barn-find fame, author of several books on this subject and now with a show on the Hagerty website, and Wayne Carini of Chasing Classic Cars, both of whom have been on the hunt for preserved but underused, reclaimable cars for years;
2. the preservation movement in the classic car world, championed in the U.S. by Dr. Fred Simeone starting about 10 years ago and now worthy of its own class in the AACA, which has resulted in many unrestored old clunkers, sometimes even parts on a pallet, coming to auction.

What have we seen as a result?
1. Some #4s are now commanding higher prices than #1s;
2. Owners are scouring their dusty back corners in the hopes that there is something that they can unload;
3. a lot more shady characters seem to be selling "deals."

At several of the bigger auctions this past season, one could see a classic Locomobile, Packard, or something in #4 condition being offered up and commanding strong money at the fall of the gavel. In fact, I looked over two barn-find 356 Speedsters this year, and gosh almighty, they were clapped out but intact #4s. And they both commanded #1 or #2 prices in the end.

We are witnessing this movement all around us and also in our 356 enclave. I haven't yet seen it, but I wonder when this will hit the world of early 911s and 912s? Has anyone seen junker 901s going for stupid money?

[Ronald Sieber]

Going back to the post's original question, I would carefully do my homework, inspect that 356 everywhere, total up the price of parts and services needed to get it to where I wanted it to be at the end. I would not change my method. In the end I would not worry that some great but junked-up car would go to someone else who had the extra money to burn that I as a hobbyist do not have.

[C J Murray]

Some have spoken already but do the rest of you always volunteer more money when the seller is asking less than YOUR perceived value? I am hoping for some entertaining answers. Who among us least enjoys purchasing something for less than we expected to pay? What if a seller refused to take the extra money? Would you be upset or would you just pass on the purchase?

[Edwin Ek]

For me, and perhaps most, the appeal of barn finds, or unrestored, less than cherry cars, is two-fold: it doesn't decrease the value to drive them, compared to lawn queens, and they are more likely to be original (have original parts).

[Dan Epperly]

The barn-find movement (I think that it has grown enough to become a movement) may have started with several trends outside of our 356 world, and I have witnessed two directly:
1. Tom Cotter of barn-find fame, author of several books on this subject and now with a show on the Hagerty website, and Wayne Carini of Chasing Classic Cars, both of whom have been on the hunt for preserved but underused, reclaimable cars for years;
2. the preservation movement in the classic car world, championed in the U.S. by Dr. Fred Simeone starting about 10 years ago and now worthy of its own class in the AACA, which has resulted in many unrestored old clunkers, sometimes even parts on a pallet, coming to auction.

What have we seen as a result?
1. Some #4s are now commanding higher prices than #1s;
2. Owners are scouring their dusty back corners in the hopes that there is something that they can unload;
3. a lot more shady characters seem to be selling "deals."

At several of the bigger auctions this past season, one could see a classic Locomobile, Packard, or something in #4 condition being offered up and commanding strong money at the fall of the gavel. In fact, I looked over two barn-find 356 Speedsters this year, and gosh almighty, they were clapped out but intact #4s. And they both commanded #1 or #2 prices in the end.

We are witnessing this movement all around us and also in our 356 enclave. I haven't yet seen it, but I wonder when this will hit the world of early 911s and 912s? Has anyone seen junker 901s going for stupid money?

Patina look has been the thing in the VW split Bus world for at least the past 20 years. Original nice cars have always been popular, but I think the bus guys made it culturally ok to drive what would have been considered an embarrassing restoration project or worse by most enthusiasts. Rust, beat up second or third crappy paint jobs, etc was never popular with the Carini crowd, though now even he is into it. Nope, I think this whole thing started with the split Bus guys but at least they seem to have the sense to value accordingly. You don't see old worn out third paint job junkers selling for more than nicely restored buses, maybe it's because there are so many buses that fit that catagory whereas most 356s seemed to have been restored, so to stand out from the crowd you have to show up in a beat up turd and pay for the privilege of doing so. I don't mean to sound like a snob, in fact I happen to own a clapped out turd of a B coupe that I like, but it's no patina car, it's just a clapped out car with a worn out bad TJ paint job and interior.

[Jon Schmid]

If you're in it to win it, for the long haul, you just do your best to treat people right.

^^^^This.

[robert e gwaltney]

Adam, good morning, we have talked but never met however, reading ur post above I can tell you are the kind of guy I would respect and look up to, glad there are guys like u still around, robb

[Edwin Ek]

Some have spoken already but do the rest of you always volunteer more money when the seller is asking less than YOUR perceived value? I am hoping for some entertaining answers. Who among us least enjoys purchasing something for less than we expected to pay? What if a seller refused to take the extra money? Would you be upset or would you just pass on the purchase?

This isn't difficult. Just say, that price is too low. Is it so unthinkable to pay a fair price? To treat people the way you would like to be treated?

Why do flippers have a bad reputation?

My guess is that if a seller offered too low a price, and you were honest about the value, the transaction price would end up in the middle. The seller would surely be pleased about and grateful for your honesty.

Just because it is easy to take advantage of someone doesn't mean you should. Think about what lots of people (often women) face when buying service or repairs for their modern car. Information asymmetry and duress make people ripe for exploitation.

[Adam Wright]

There are a couple of things to consider here. The average dude either buying or selling a car is probably not bound by any real rules because there aren't any consequences to his actions, other than karma, guilt, or hell-fire. If he sells a car and doesn't disclose something wrong with it, the buyer just eats it and the seller doesn't care, he isn't in the car business, he goes back to selling vacuum cleaners. The reverse is true too, if a one time buyer pays way too low for a car, well, that's on him. He isn't in the buying business so it will probably never come around to him. It's people who are in the business who have to hold ourselves to a higher standard to last. I know guys who guy to events but won't wear name tags, probably afraid of a beat down. The exception to the flipper rule is the jack of all trades flipper who sells all the "exotics", not just Porsches. We all know those guys, they advertise everywhere. They don't care about burning either end, the buying or the selling, it's all about volume for them, not being a member of a community. Personally I like to wear a name tag, and run into people I have bought or sold to at events, it's never awkward. So there are a lot of people who can out-do me in a deal, the fly by night flippers, the "pro" flippers, and the one time buyers, but I learned a long time ago to stick to a code and karma will take care of me. Sometimes it's taking care of the little things and the big things come around. On several occasions I've had guys buy cars on ebay for heavy money and tell me after they won that they bought wheels or a part from me years earlier and I was honest, so they felt safe bidding heavy on a car. So doing right on a $1000 set of wheels can build trust for a $100,000 car. There is a method to the madness.

[Edwin Ek]

Adam, apologies if you think my comments about flippers are directed at you. I don't consider you a flipper- you make great efforts and dig out cars and parts. You provide a service. That is way too much work for true flippers.