Fan for my '60 Normal

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Paul Ahnell
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Fan for my '60 Normal

#1 Post by Paul Ahnell »

I need a fan for my '60 Normal with the screened shroud. Prefer a 28-vane to replace the current 16-vane (I think it is the cause of a whine) but can't seem to find a good match to attach to my newly reconditioned 200W generator

I did get a new 28 vane “VW” fan from Cip1 touted as “32mm cooling fan – all beetle style engines up to 1970, part # VWC-113-119-031-A”. See Attached photos. The description and the # seemed to say it would fit my ’60 Normal engine and volute according to things I read on the Registry Forum. But, NO GO.
• The rear of the Cip1 “VW” 28 vane impeller is dished, unlike the 16 vane original which is flat with a center recess for thick washer. Also, the VW staples protrude ~1/16".
• When I use the same spacer washers as used with the original 16-vane impeller I can’t get the spec 3mm clearance. The VW impeller bottoms out and scrapes the cover plate that butts up to the generator, closing the back of the shroud.
• When I add more spacer washers to get the 3mm clearance, the thick washer with the oblong hole under the impeller nut is not captured by the generator shaft, even when snugged down.
• Again, everything fits up perfectly with the original 16 vane impeller.

Vendors have told me to get a 912, or an SC, or a VW, or you name it. I do know some are fat front-to-back and some are thin. I didn't know this would be so difficult.

My "B" Ersatzteil Katalog says the part # for the impeller is 616.106.011.00 with a former #539.06.204. Is the 616. a 28-vane and the 539. the 16 vane?

Were 16 vanes used after 1960?

Looking for recommendation for a specific 28 vane here. I've had no cooling issues with my 16 vane so maybe I should just stay with the same, but I was hoping 28 vane would lose the whine.

Oh, I don't often exceed 45-4700 rpm, so I don't think I need a welded and balance unit.

Appreciate any comments and recommendations. Thanks.
Attachments
28 vane front.JPG
28 vane ctr dim.JPG
28 vane back.JPG
Paul Ahnell
'60 Normal Coupe

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Ron LaDow
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#2 Post by Ron LaDow »

PaulAhnell wrote: Oh, I don't often exceed 45-4700 rpm, so I don't think I need a welded and balance unit.
Appreciate any comments and recommendations. Thanks.
That's still near 10KRPM at the fan and the damage it if goes far exceeds the cost of doing it right. Plus, the parts are far older than they were designed to last.
I think Jack Staggs offers 'ready' units (I think). He'll also probably have fiddled with your combination more than once.
He's in San Clemente, CA, 949-942-9606. As I understand it, he's not an early riser.
Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz

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Mike Wilson
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#3 Post by Mike Wilson »

Cheap insurance to have the fan tack welded and balanced.
Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

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John Brooks
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#4 Post by John Brooks »

I agree with Mike, tack and balance any fan you choose. You should see what it does to the oil cooler when it gives up.
John Brooks

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Alex Mestas
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#5 Post by Alex Mestas »

Paul:

Suggested reading. I would rather do it correctly than fix the potential damage.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15838&p=119463&hili ... Fan#p68695
1963 356 T-6 Coupe Signal Red.
1973.5 911 T Coupe Ivory.
1989 911 Carrera Targa Grd Prix White.

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David Baugh
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#6 Post by David Baugh »

Hi, Paul.

If you do not have the cover plate installed over the nine holes in your 16 vane fan, it will whine rather loudly at about 3200 to 3400 rpm. Then, it will begin to shriek above 4500 or so.

Does this sound anything like what you are experiencing?

Dave
When in doubt .... Gas it! 
'58 356A Coupe

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Paul Ahnell
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#7 Post by Paul Ahnell »

All: Thanks for comments and suggestions. I've found the 28 Vane unit I need. I will elucidate in a day or so (OBE right now), hopefully providing info that will help others avoid chasing their tail as I did.

David: I do have the "pie plate" in place over the 8 (not 9) holes. Still, the whine starts ~3K and continues on up. By 4500 all I hear is the overall clatter and roar of the engine room. Even with fresh hearing aid batteries I can't sort out the whine . My sled is somewhat light on sound damping material, another item on the "to do" list. More to follow.
Paul Ahnell
'60 Normal Coupe

Dick Weiss
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#8 Post by Dick Weiss »

Paul,

There's nothing wrong w/the 16-blade fan if it's blowing thru the original oil cooler w/the early screened intake;
The 28-blade fan was needed to blow thru the later 'meshed' oil cooler which required the voluted/venturi intake.
The fan must be mounted correctly w/the 3mm gap to the large plate and the generator must be sitting correctly
on the stand and the fan housing is sitting correctly on the case to prevent the fan's OD/edge from contacting
the lip of the F/housing's opening. BTW, the generator w/its fan is attached to the F/housing to check the gap 1st.

I've had no problems w/any 'fan-screamings' after the above assemblies are done. I can't assume the generator
bearings would be the problem, but then again--maybe. I've seen fans w/o the 'pie plate, and they didn't make noise.

Dick

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Paul Ahnell
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#9 Post by Paul Ahnell »

Dick: Thanks for that info on the 16 vane working with the older oil cooler. My cooler is a later model, '63 I believe. See photos. I wasn't aware that may be part of the problem. The shroud is stock with the wire mesh over the intake. I'll install the 28 vane and see if I lose the whine. If not, I'll search for a newer shroud with the volute intake. To be continued.
Attachments
oil cooler3.JPG
oil cooler1.JPG
Paul Ahnell
'60 Normal Coupe

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Paul Ahnell
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#10 Post by Paul Ahnell »

And now, the rest of the story.

I found a 28-vane fan (pix) to replace my tired old 16-vane version (pix) and installed it yesterday to find it has eliminated the annoying whine which began ~3K rpm and steadily increased in volume, but not pitch. Here are a few things I learned through many helpful Forum comments from members and others.
1. Following comments address my specific situation i.e. ’60 Normal with 200W generator and shroud with the wire over the intake. Different generators may have different hub positions which will effect fan axial location and choice. Comments may apply to pre and post ’60. I’ll let others more knowledgeable address that.
2. There are ~8-10 different fans for our engines. Jack Stagg supplied pix as examples along with many helpful comments. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ ... id=1834608
3. Both my 16 and the replacement 28 fan have an overall axial dimension of 2 ½ inches of which the vane cage is 1 ¼ inches.
4. According to specs, the back of the fan should stand off from the shroud closing panel by 3 mm when installed.
5. Hot tip from Vic Skirmants (I paraphrase): first assemble all the pieces in front of the generator WITHOUT the fan, snug down the nut, and see if it clamps all of the other parts. If not, add spacer washers until it does, then you will know it will clamp the fan. A common failing is the fan not being clamped properly because the nut is bottomed on the generator hub.
6. There seems to be only one 28 that has a flat back side like the 16, with a recess for washer and spacers. The standoff for front of the hole in the center of the recess for these two is ~ 13 mm (1/2 inch) when set on a flat surface.
7. The others have a dished backside with hole-front standoff varying from 15 to 18 mm +/-.
8. Fans with the larger standoffs will scrape against the shroud closing panel. If you use spacer washers to preclude the scrape you will find that the thick washer under the impeller (fan) nut is not captured by the forward hub of the generator. Not good.
9. I purchased a 28 (pix) from Cip1, #VWC-113-119-031-A, touted to suit “…all Beetle style engines up to 1970.”. Some explicit Forum comments (and a comment in the Maestro’s “Secrets”) led me to believe that this fan would fit my needs. No Way. It may work with a VW but not my 356. It has a dished backside and the hole has a large standoff (-11/16 inch) with problems noted above.
10. So, I needed a 28 with ~13mm hole standoff. Called Adam Wright at Unobtanium who said he had several bins of fans I was welcome to go through. 2 ½ hour drive put me in Ravena, NY where I met Adam and Matt Wright and “Big John”. Nicest, most accommodating gentlemen you will ever meet. Adam showed me the fan stashes and started to sort through them with me. When I told him he was probably busy and I could do it alone he gave me free access to the facility. After many measurements I found two 28s that would work. The one I really wanted was in good shape and cleaned up nicely, but was attached to a Bosch 200W generator like mine. No problem said Adam. Blip from the impact wrench and it was mine, at a very low cost. Also found a used interior back panel, again at very low cost. Well worth the drive if you are in the Northeast. If they don’t have it, you don’t need it.
11. See Dick Weiss’ comment in this string about old and new oil coolers and fans. I have a newer oil cooler. Maybe the 16 wasn’t yielding the correct flow for that cooler, hence the whine, since abated. Yippee!
Attachments
Cip1 28 vane 17mm offset dim.JPG
Cip1 28 vane back.JPG
Cip1 28 vane front.JPG
16 vane standoff.JPG
16 vane Front.JPG
16 vane back.JPG
28 vane replacement standoff.JPG
28 vane replacment back.JPG
28 vane relacement front.JPG
Paul Ahnell
'60 Normal Coupe

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Alex Mestas
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#11 Post by Alex Mestas »

Hi Paul:
Wow! I never knew there were so many variants of the 28 vane fan. Great detailed discussion. I must have really lucked out when I changed mine. I had decided to change my fan to a 28 vane fan, I wanted to ensure the rivets from breaking, so I had the rivets tig welded and the fan balanced. I found a 28 vane fan for sale here on the Registry. We merely and I guess innocently, just replaced one for the other and every thing worked well. It could have been an ugly nightmare. Great info for others who are thinking of changing their fans. I would encourage you however to have it welded and balanced. I've seen the destruction they cause.
1963 356 T-6 Coupe Signal Red.
1973.5 911 T Coupe Ivory.
1989 911 Carrera Targa Grd Prix White.

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Curt Dansby
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#12 Post by Curt Dansby »

Hi Folks

I have a contribution to the "whine" issue. A friend has his car at a competent shop with a factory trained mechanic. Car had a terrible noise. They swapped the generator, plugged holes in the shroud, fixed loose tab nuts on the shroud all to no avail. Finally they duct taped the oil cooler shut- no noise. An inspection of the cooler did not reveal any loose fins, but somewhere internally something was acting like a reed in a wood instrument. They installed a new aluminum cooler, stand tested and voila. Engine is going back into the car as I type.

Curt

Brad Ripley
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#13 Post by Brad Ripley »

Paul, Glad you finally were able to find a good used fan to fit.
After all your research, do you have any idea about a part number (VW) for a new fan?

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Neil Bardsley
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#14 Post by Neil Bardsley »

Curt Dansby wrote:Hi Folks

I have a contribution to the "whine" issue. A friend has his car at a competent shop with a factory trained mechanic. Car had a terrible noise. They swapped the generator, plugged holes in the shroud, fixed loose tab nuts on the shroud all to no avail. Finally they duct taped the oil cooler shut- no noise. An inspection of the cooler did not reveal any loose fins, but somewhere internally something was acting like a reed in a wood instrument. They installed a new aluminum cooler, stand tested and voila. Engine is going back into the car as I type.

Curt
I once had a whine at idle after fitting a reconditioned generator because I had over tightened the bolt that goes through the shroud to the oil filter canister bracket.

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Paul Ahnell
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Re: Fan for my '60 Normal

#15 Post by Paul Ahnell »

Brad: Sorry, I don't have a VW part # for you. I tried a Cip1 VW fan (see #9 in my 15 OCT 16 discussion above) thought to be correct but it wasn't. I had to go hand over hand through Adam's stash taking measurements and comparing design details to the original to get the correct fit. At one point I had ~ 10-12 possibles laid out in Unobtanium's yard. But it was worth it to lose the whine.

As an aside, many thanks to Curt Dansby and the IT guys who spent a ton of time helping me resolve the spotty, then non-existent receipt of my daily Forum digest which turned out to be Comcast problem on my end. Long live the Prez!
Paul Ahnell
'60 Normal Coupe

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