Question on engine matching and valuation

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DanWalkowski
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Question on engine matching and valuation

#1 Post by DanWalkowski »

Hello everyone,
I am very close to purchasing a 356 of my own. Upon my research, I discovered a car I am interested in is a 1963 356 with an S motor. As I was working with the seller, he informed me that the motor is not numbers matching. Upon further review, I learn that the motor is actually a 1961 standard T5.
I'd like to tap the collective wisdom of the forum here, on the effects this would have on valuation. From some simple research, I find that an S motor can be found, but the price is in the neighborhood of $10K.

Given where the market has taken these cars, I want to make a sound decision here. What are your views on how much a cars value changes due to to this motor mismatch.

Thanks in advance for your comments on the matter.
Regards,
Dan

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#2 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Perhaps the engine has been rebuilt to S specs. Matching numbers may increase your pool of interested parties if you sell but since this engine does not match not really an issue. Only someone who sells a lot of 356s can really have a good opinion on price but 10-15 % more for matching numbers is thrown about sometimes. More than that for Speedsters. For a DRIVER, you cannot tell if matching numbers while driving. And for 10K you could probably rebuild the engine you have with big bore kit,S cam and rejet the carbs and have a very nice driving engine with a fresh rebuild.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Martin Benade
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#3 Post by Martin Benade »

It also matters how nice the car is. If it is totally perfect and beyond driver-quality, the numbers begin to get more important. Doug worded it perfectly by saying matching numbers increases the pool of interested parties when selling. Some only want matching numbers, but lots of other people view that as a perk, but not a necessity.
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DanWalkowski
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#4 Post by DanWalkowski »

Thanks for the insight on numbers matching. How about the S motor vs a normal motor? I'm trying to verify if it's been brought up to S spec just to be sure.

As for the cars condition, I'd say it's a nice car, a solid driver that's been repainted non original color and interior replaced different color as well. Body and floors look to be in good condition, and all the trouble spots seem to be in order.

All in all it's a nice car that I can buy, drive and be pretty happy with

At the end of the the day, you've got to lay out a good bit of money for these cars, and I want to be sure. I'm coming into 356's by way of having my Porsche passion through a 1969 911. I've always wanted a 356, and now that I'm at the point to be fortunate enough to realize the dream, I'm looking before I leap...

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Martin Benade
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#5 Post by Martin Benade »

A quickie engine ID can be had by looking down the carb throats. The venturis in an S are easily seen to be larger, and MAY indicate S or N, although checking the cam and compression is not so simple. I think a google images search would show you what to look for on the venturi size.
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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#6 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Dan Have a PPI done before you Leap. Someone familiar with 356s might even be able to tell if the engine feels more like an S. That said Normal engines have lots of low end torque and make nice drivers. And you can always find and build a 912 engine for added power in the future.I would do that before I bought an S engine to replace the Normal.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

Edwin Ek
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#7 Post by Edwin Ek »

Things are magnified the more valuable the car is. For a '63 Super coupe, I think a $10K drop in value is on the high side.
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Steve Harrison
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#8 Post by Steve Harrison »

Hello Dan, and welcome to the forum.
I'd say that the first good sign is that the seller chose to tell you right up front about the motor not being numbers matching. Some sellers put that on you to find out, and this shows good character in my opinion. As for what it adds or detracts, I agree with the others,...it's logical to view it in light of the condition and/or rarity of the individual car. It also depends on your own intentions. If you are looking to drive the car for fun, than it's in line with the previous statement. If you are looking to buy a good complete car in order to do a big time full restoration then yes, I'd say having the original matching numbers everything makes it a better candidate to spend that kind of money on. In the end,..it's like buying art,...buy what you like. If it appreciates, great,...if it doesn't, well,...then, you got to appreciate it yourself for the time you had it to enjoy. If you think about it,...what's the average new car going for in a few years after ownership? Even the high end ones....
Hope you can come to some agreement with the seller and can get into the car for what you consider a fair price.

Personally, I wouldn't sweat the S vs N deal that much. Once the original engine is gone, you're looking at a good driver car anyway....not a concour queen. The difference between an S and an N boils down to cam, compression, and carbs. All alterable with a little time and money. The seat of the pants difference is only apparent if you compare the two side by side.

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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#9 Post by Doug McDonnell »

And even if the engine is a Normal remember it is more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Coming from a 911 any 356 with a reliable street engine will feel slow. But 356s are very fun to drive. And in my opinion more beautiful.
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

Mike Horton
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#10 Post by Mike Horton »

My 1st Normal, a '57, was the one I drove far more than any others. My B Normal, hopped up for autocross, was much less civilized to drive on the street, and got poor fuel mileage, though I suffered with the "hot" cam for more than 10,000 miles, before the crank broke. As an old aviation piston mechanic, and over-hauler, the condition and integrity of the engine is more important to your immediate driving plans. My nearly stock (only has a distributor change), '68 912, has been really nice, as well, except for the ethanol compromises. My council, don't miss a good car, or, a good deal, if it fits you, I love the B.
Mike

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Jim Liberty
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#11 Post by Jim Liberty »

There are a number of factors to consider. First I presume you are buying at some reduced price due to the non matching car. Also, what you plan to do with the car is very important. If this is going to be your long term "Baby" and you intend to drive the heck out of it, the numbers matching engine doesn't mean much. If however it is some kind of investment car, it matters a lot. I always try to by all matching numbers cars, as they have a bigger pool of buyers, especially those in Europe.

.........................................................Good luck, Jim.
Jim Liberty

DanWalkowski
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#12 Post by DanWalkowski »

I really appreciate the inputs everyone. I was able to connect with the local PCA and found a person who has a great reputation with early Porsches to do the PPI, which is scheduled for tomorrow. If all goes wellI should have all I need in order to commit to the deal. I'll post pictures of the car once the deal is closed...

DanWalkowski
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#13 Post by DanWalkowski »

The PPI is complete, and gave me confidence to buy the car. Here's a teaser picture until I can get it home
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Doug McDonnell
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#14 Post by Doug McDonnell »

Like!
1965 356C 2000 BMW 740i Sport 1967 Honda CL77 There is never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over.

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Jim Liberty
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Re: Question on engine matching and valuation

#15 Post by Jim Liberty »

I like it too. Congrats. ..........................Jim.
Jim Liberty

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