"MATCHING NUMBERS"

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tom meighan
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"MATCHING NUMBERS"

#1 Post by tom meighan » Wed Sep 10, 2008 1:44 pm

HI ALL
what exactly does "matching numbers" mean??

Thanks

Robert Kenton
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#2 Post by Robert Kenton » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:11 pm

Generally this means that the car in question has the chassis, engine, and transmission that it was delivered with when new, as confirmed by the Kardex/Porsche Certificate of Authenticity. This is highly desirable in the eyes of most 356ers, including me, and generally will add value to the car. Some of the other parts may or may not also bear part or all of the chassis number, but these are less critical in the eyes of most prospective purchasers who are seeking a numbers-matching car.
Robert W. Kenton

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Sebastian Gaeta
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#3 Post by Sebastian Gaeta » Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:56 pm

I'm sure that the last 3 digits of the VIN stamped on the front hood, door and engine lid are important to those wanting matching numbers as well. Different ones usually mean accident damage was fixed by replacing those items.
Sebastian Gaeta
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Registry #8339

'65 C coupe
'64 C cab
--------
2005 997 C2 Cab
2001 996 C4
1998 Boxster
1967 Karmann Ghia Convertible
1966 Ducati Cafe Racer
1964 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1963 Beetle

JOEL JENSEN

#4 Post by JOEL JENSEN » Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:05 pm

A full matching #'s car has not only the engine and transmission in the original chassis,
but all moving panels, doors, hood, engine lid, and bumpers will have numbers that match the chassis. Many cars don't have this as they have been hit and subsequently had panels replaced from donor cars or have been clipped, that is a section of fender or other body panel has been replaced by a donor or reproduction piece. Many including myself, simply want a nice, tight, good driving car and don't care about numbers matching. If you are one of those who place a premium on them the penultimate incarnation is one of with
all numbers intact indicating a car that hasn't been in a major accident since it's original
build. Low miles and a lack of rust are also positives but finding such a car is, if not difficult, at least expensive unless the Porsche Gods are smiling on you. :wink:

Sean Longhi
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matching #'s car

#5 Post by Sean Longhi » Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:42 pm

I'm going to chime in here. Aside from the big guys Ferrari, Corvette, Porsche, Aston Martin most cars consider Matching numbers to be the Trans, Engine and Serial Number.

Early Corvette is the most anal, as you can have every little peice categaorized for top flite awards with Alternator/Generator and Water Pump to Window Glass and Carbs. Even the heads are stamped three times.
Aston Martin second as they still to date have only made some 30,000 cars since the company started.

Car owners focus then on matching numbers with trans, engine and serial, as to not just correct in appearance, but correct in parts, such as the original bolts with the original head patterns, etc.

In the collector world.
If you have Matching numbers, refer to your build sheet, broadcast order (GM) Kardex or COA. The paper birthdate depects whats what.
Generally, engine size with engine number, trans number and gear ratio withe serial number and options (loosely) Ie is your car worth less becuase it has wrong tires. Doubtful. A corvette at Barrett Jackson, Maybe?

Never mind this matching door Number and decklid number and the correct number on the hood hinge or wiper motor. Unless you are getting points. This doesnt matter.
Matching numbers is engine trans and serial number its registered. Have it and ad 15% more.

Just my two cents. BTW anyone have Engine Number 72260.

Sean Longhi
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Sean-Christerfer Longhi, Vancouver Canada
604-910-0441
Member 19635

(Sold all my 356s so "porscheless" right now!)

JOEL JENSEN

#6 Post by JOEL JENSEN » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:15 am

Sean,
You are correct about most cars, but here we are talking about 356 Porsches, cars that
were hand built and each panel number stamped since each one was fitted by hand and
was unique to that particular car. This does not include ancillary devices such as wiper
motors or steering columns which were outsourced by Porsche and common to a particular
run of cars. Anyone representing a 356 Porsche as 'matching numbers' based on only the
main chassis number, engine and transmission would be providing an erroneous description.

Robert Kenton
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Re: matching #'s car

#7 Post by Robert Kenton » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:27 am

Sean Longhi wrote:I'm going to chime in here. Aside from the big guys Ferrari, Corvette, Porsche, Aston Martin most cars consider Matching numbers to be the Trans, Engine and Serial Number.

Early Corvette is the most anal, as you can have every little peice categaorized for top flite awards with Alternator/Generator and Water Pump to Window Glass and Carbs. Even the heads are stamped three times.
Aston Martin second as they still to date have only made some 30,000 cars since the company started.

Car owners focus then on matching numbers with trans, engine and serial, as to not just correct in appearance, but correct in parts, such as the original bolts with the original head patterns, etc.

In the collector world.
If you have Matching numbers, refer to your build sheet, broadcast order (GM) Kardex or COA. The paper birthdate depects whats what.
Generally, engine size with engine number, trans number and gear ratio withe serial number and options (loosely) Ie is your car worth less becuase it has wrong tires. Doubtful. A corvette at Barrett Jackson, Maybe?

Never mind this matching door Number and decklid number and the correct number on the hood hinge or wiper motor. Unless you are getting points. This doesnt matter.
Matching numbers is engine trans and serial number its registered. Have it and ad 15% more.

Just my two cents. BTW anyone have Engine Number 72260.

Sean Longhi
Vancouver





I absolutely agree w/ Sean. Yes, it would be fabulous to have EVERYTHING match the chassis number as others have described, and what purist (I count myself in this camp, big time) wouldn't covet such a car? But they are surely rare. In the real world though, matching numbers, for all intents and purposes, means the big 3: chassis, engine, and transmission. I've never seen a 356 advertised, even by the big boys such as Bob Campbell and European Collectibles, as fully matching with all panels included; if they have them, they probably never make it to their general listings. My 2 cts.
Robert W. Kenton

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Emil Wojcik
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matching #'s car

#8 Post by Emil Wojcik » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:07 am

Never mind this matching door Number and deck lid number and the correct number on the hood hinge or wiper motor. Unless you are getting points. This doesn’t matter
In any car that has the body panels hand-fit to the main body, "number's matching" includes these panels. In standard production cars where all panels are interchangeable with any other car of the same model, it's not as important. You have to remember that for the 356, the driver's door from your car will not fit on the car that was made right behind your car without some serious fitting work. In the 356 world, if you are offering a car as number's matching, it's expected that that also includes all opening panels.
Emil Wojcik
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Emil Wojcik
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matching #'s car

#9 Post by Emil Wojcik » Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:14 am

absolutely agree w/ Sean. Yes, it would be fabulous to have EVERYTHING match the chassis number as others have described, and what purist (I count myself in this camp, big time) wouldn't covet such a car? But they are surely rare.
I guess that depends on your definition of rare. My car has all number’s matching including all panels. And three of the four other 356's that are close to me in NJ are also complete number's matching cars.

That doesn’t mean that a car without all panels matching is automatically worth less. To may, including me, it's not as important as how the car looks and drives. But do not call a 356 number's matching without the original panels. It would confuse most enthusiasts.
Emil Wojcik
'64 356C Euro coupe
'78 MGB
'86 Jaguar XJ6 Series 3
'94 MB E420

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Barry Brisco
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"MATCHING NUMBERS"

#10 Post by Barry Brisco » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:03 am

Never mind this matching door Number and decklid number and the
correct number on the hood hinge or wiper motor. Unless you are
getting points. This doesnt matter.
Matching numbers is engine trans and serial number its registered.
Have it and ad 15% more.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Sean, matching panels (meaning the panels that car was built with)
does matter to many people, but not to others. And there is no magic
percentage you can add to the value of a car with matching numbers.
To say "add 15%" is misleading. It's going to depend on the buyer,
and every buyer is different.

Matching panels is evidence that the car has likely never been in a
serious accident, which is useful information.

And having matching panels doesn't necessarily give you "points" in a
concours, which are primarily judged on cleanliness and originality.

Barry

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"MATCHING NUMBERS"

#11 Post by Barry Brisco » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:06 am

Robert, 356s with all original panels and original engine and trans
are not as rare as you think, and I have seen many for sale (though
overall they are probably a minority of all 356s still in existence).
My A coupe is such a car, as was a Convertible D I used to own. A C
coupe I used to own was not. I'm sure there are many on 356Talk who
have matching number cars with all their original closing panels
(hood, doors, decklid).

Barry

At 21:27 -0700 9/10/08, Robert Kenton wrote:
I absolutely agree w/ Sean. Yes, it would be fabulous to have
EVERYTHING match the chassis number as others have described, and
what purist (I count myself in this camp, big time) wouldn't covet
such a car? But they are surely rare. In the real world though,
matching numbers, for all intents and purposes, means the big 3:
chassis, engine, and transmission. I've never seen a 356
advertised, even by the big boys such as Bob Campbell and European
Collectibles, as fully matching with all panels included; if they
have them, they probably never make it to their general listings.
My 2 cts.
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Barry Brisco
1959 356A Coupe 105553, Ivory / Brown
2009 987 Cayman, Carrera White / Beige (daily driver)

Sean Longhi
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#12 Post by Sean Longhi » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:50 am

Sorry Barry, I jumped on the %15 percent.

There are loads of hand built modeled bodied car companies, each with numbered panels. If you are going for awards, ok, I can see the value, but if you are in the collector car sales world, the 356 is a mid priced value car.
The classic car market depicts matching numbers as engine and trans and serial.
that's it.

Is a car that has matching panels, doors engine trans and serial numbers more valuable to another car with different doors, decklid, and matching serial engine and trans?

To an avid 356 collector...maybe. to everyone else.. I doubt it. I generalize in my posts, I'm sorry.

Just my two cents.

Sean
Sean-Christerfer Longhi, Vancouver Canada
604-910-0441
Member 19635

(Sold all my 356s so "porscheless" right now!)

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tom meighan
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MATCHING NUMBERS

#13 Post by tom meighan » Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:43 pm

Hi All

Thanks for the numerous comments. As best as I remember only the rear bumper was replaced after a minor rear-ender in city traffic 20 plus years ago. It seems that I can honestly say "Matching Numbers".

Regards

Tom 65C

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matching numbers question from a newbie

#14 Post by Mike Lewis » Fri Sep 12, 2008 4:58 pm

Hello all,
Well, I'll show my ignorance but can claim being a 356 newbie as my excuse as just
purchased my first one a few weeks ago. I'm interested in the topic as also being
an Austin Healey 3000 owner, matching numbers is also a big deal. Now to my
ignorance - where exactly do you look for the partial car number stamp on the
doors, hood and trunk lid ? Also, do the numbers on the front parking lights and tail
lights have any significance ? I know the engine and tranny are the original in my
1965 C coupe as the car is even listed on the registry site but do not know about
the other items. Thanks for everyone's help. BTW, this is a GREAT message board !
Mike
Mike Lewis

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Barry Brisco
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Re: matching numbers question from a newbie

#15 Post by Barry Brisco » Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:10 pm

Mike Lewis wrote:Hello all,
where exactly do you look for the partial car number stamp on the
doors, hood and trunk lid ? Also, do the numbers on the front parking lights and tail
lights have any significance ?
Mike, see this article "Chassis Number Locations" http://356registry.org/tech/vin_locations.htmland for info on the front turn signal numbers see http://356registry.org/tech/front_turn_ ... types.html. The numbers on the front and rear turn signals are manufacturer numbers.
Barry Brisco
1959 356A Coupe 105553, Ivory / Brown
2009 987 Cayman, Carrera White / Beige (daily driver)

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