Oil filtration results
- Ron LaDow
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Oil filtration results
Jim Learmonth, 5/24/14:
"I installed your [Precision Matters] full flow oil filter about ten years ago on a C coupe with 41,000 miles on a rebuilt engine.
Last month the engine had to be removed and repaired at 127,000 miles. A broken valve spring prompted me to
do a full valve job. I thought it remarkable that none of the valves or guides showed wear that would
make replacement necessary."
I'm certain Jim also takes good care of his car, but it seems he got his money back on the filter.
"I installed your [Precision Matters] full flow oil filter about ten years ago on a C coupe with 41,000 miles on a rebuilt engine.
Last month the engine had to be removed and repaired at 127,000 miles. A broken valve spring prompted me to
do a full valve job. I thought it remarkable that none of the valves or guides showed wear that would
make replacement necessary."
I'm certain Jim also takes good care of his car, but it seems he got his money back on the filter.
Ron LaDow
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- Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Oil filtration results
Hi Ron
very encouraging but have any of your customers done periodic oil analysis vs non filtered engines?
j
very encouraging but have any of your customers done periodic oil analysis vs non filtered engines?
j
- Ron LaDow
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Re: Oil filtration results
Jacques,
I haven't heard of any one doing so, and since I left The Stable change my oil, I haven't. What I do hear of regularly and with some amusement is that you can still see the dipstick through the oil after 500 miles!
On a related issue, take a look at this: The line represents the lowest drain-back into the sump even during an oil change (not counting what leaks past the joint since none of us seal that area). By guesstimate, I'm gonna say there's near 200ccs of dirty oil trapped there every oil change.
People at the factory spent a long time looking at that case and decided it was just fine, but I'm wondering if a 8-10mm hole where the red circle is wouldn't help with clean oil.
Wadaya think?
I haven't heard of any one doing so, and since I left The Stable change my oil, I haven't. What I do hear of regularly and with some amusement is that you can still see the dipstick through the oil after 500 miles!
On a related issue, take a look at this: The line represents the lowest drain-back into the sump even during an oil change (not counting what leaks past the joint since none of us seal that area). By guesstimate, I'm gonna say there's near 200ccs of dirty oil trapped there every oil change.
People at the factory spent a long time looking at that case and decided it was just fine, but I'm wondering if a 8-10mm hole where the red circle is wouldn't help with clean oil.
Wadaya think?
Ron LaDow
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- Martin Benade
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Re: Oil filtration results
Not having a case in front of me to inspect, is that possibly left that way to make sure tho oil pump stays full or half-full?
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- Ron LaDow
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Re: Oil filtration results
Martin,
Unfortunately, the oil trapped there has no way of getting to the pump.
Racers might consider scavenging from there with some sort of feed line, but 200ccs isn't gonna feed a large pump for more than a couple of seconds.
Unfortunately, the oil trapped there has no way of getting to the pump.
Racers might consider scavenging from there with some sort of feed line, but 200ccs isn't gonna feed a large pump for more than a couple of seconds.
Ron LaDow
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Re: Oil filtration results
Interesting point, Ron.
CJ; what do you think?
CJ; what do you think?
- C J Murray
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Re: Oil filtration results
Hi Ron,
I agree, unless the engineers wanted the oil level in the timing chest to not go any lower as oil was consumed by the engine over time. The timing gears require a bath which requires a "level" of oil whereas the engine is force fed by oil sourced from a very low level in the main sump. Even the camshaft lobes and followers are oiled by the splatter from the engine bearing cast off if the lobes don't dip into the sump oil.
I agree, unless the engineers wanted the oil level in the timing chest to not go any lower as oil was consumed by the engine over time. The timing gears require a bath which requires a "level" of oil whereas the engine is force fed by oil sourced from a very low level in the main sump. Even the camshaft lobes and followers are oiled by the splatter from the engine bearing cast off if the lobes don't dip into the sump oil.
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Re: Oil filtration results
Another thought... maybe the engineers were trying to keep excess oil OUT of the timing chest! When the gears are spinning, the oil will "climb" up the gear set as it clings to the spinning gears. If the oil from the sump was allowed to flow into the timing chest then there may be too much oil that causes excess drag, heat, and leaks.
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- Al Zim
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Re: Oil filtration results
When I started in 1962 our shop used Kendall the 2000 Mil oil. Their advertisement indicated that it would last longer than most other oils. Oil changes in the 1000 and 2000 mile intervals were not uncommon. A lube job went with the oil change. Most of the cars on the road did not have full flow oil filters. Now we have moved to 15,000 mile oil changes. Many individuals that drive older vehicles do not realize that oil changes are done to remove the particulates in the oil not because it has worn out.
Zim's has used oil analysis service on and off for a number of years before the synthetics were brought to market. Certain models of Porsche automobiles should have this done every oil change, cutting open the filter will usually suffice. I use the factory recommended oil changes on my 356 cars. That is 1500 miles. It has been my observation that if you change oil at this interval and use a good grade of oil you will seldom have to adjust the valves. The conclusion is that only a small amount of abrasive material enters the lubrication system and the valves will not show much wear. This is not an answer to oil analysis but it is a clear indication that clean oil prolongs engine life. al zim
Copyrighted 2014 all rights reserved
Zim's has used oil analysis service on and off for a number of years before the synthetics were brought to market. Certain models of Porsche automobiles should have this done every oil change, cutting open the filter will usually suffice. I use the factory recommended oil changes on my 356 cars. That is 1500 miles. It has been my observation that if you change oil at this interval and use a good grade of oil you will seldom have to adjust the valves. The conclusion is that only a small amount of abrasive material enters the lubrication system and the valves will not show much wear. This is not an answer to oil analysis but it is a clear indication that clean oil prolongs engine life. al zim
Copyrighted 2014 all rights reserved
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- Jacques Lefriant
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Re: Oil filtration results
Hi Ron + Al
Why is it that we can not get good data? What we need is a baseline of an engine that is stock and if we had oil analysis we could plot the particulate build up between oil changes by sampling and extending the interval until the we get scary particulates. The same could be done with one of Ron's set ups preferably on an engine with previous bypass only history. Ron how much of the time do your filters bypass since the engine relief is on the other side of the filter? Al on the engines that require frequent valve adjustment are they tight(seat and valve wear non lube) or loose(cam and lifter wear)?
j
Why is it that we can not get good data? What we need is a baseline of an engine that is stock and if we had oil analysis we could plot the particulate build up between oil changes by sampling and extending the interval until the we get scary particulates. The same could be done with one of Ron's set ups preferably on an engine with previous bypass only history. Ron how much of the time do your filters bypass since the engine relief is on the other side of the filter? Al on the engines that require frequent valve adjustment are they tight(seat and valve wear non lube) or loose(cam and lifter wear)?
j
- Ron LaDow
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Re: Oil filtration results
Jacques,
I don't think it's easy; the variables are such that I'd need to run engines of similar spec (all rotating and recip parts, clearances, CR, carbs, ignition, air filters, etc) the same amount for the same time under the same temp and dirt conditions. I'd love to do it, but Pre Mat ain't FoMoCo, who did the original full flow studies published by SAE (I think they found valve stem wear greatly reduced like Jim did).
And: "Ron how much of the time do your filters bypass since the engine relief is on the other side of the filter?"
Absolutely zero; none. All the oil passes through the filter before it gets to the factory bypass, meaning the oil dumped back in the sump is pretty sparkling. The Pre Mat design filters 100% of the oil, unless you let the oil get dirty enough to plug the filter and engage the internal bypass.
With the M1 filters now shipping with the units ('racing' filters, according to the specs) you'll have to find a 25PSI delta across the element to bypass it. Just looking at that dipstick at 3K miles, I'm guessing it'll take more than a couple times that interval to plug it.
I don't think it's easy; the variables are such that I'd need to run engines of similar spec (all rotating and recip parts, clearances, CR, carbs, ignition, air filters, etc) the same amount for the same time under the same temp and dirt conditions. I'd love to do it, but Pre Mat ain't FoMoCo, who did the original full flow studies published by SAE (I think they found valve stem wear greatly reduced like Jim did).
And: "Ron how much of the time do your filters bypass since the engine relief is on the other side of the filter?"
Absolutely zero; none. All the oil passes through the filter before it gets to the factory bypass, meaning the oil dumped back in the sump is pretty sparkling. The Pre Mat design filters 100% of the oil, unless you let the oil get dirty enough to plug the filter and engage the internal bypass.
With the M1 filters now shipping with the units ('racing' filters, according to the specs) you'll have to find a 25PSI delta across the element to bypass it. Just looking at that dipstick at 3K miles, I'm guessing it'll take more than a couple times that interval to plug it.
Ron LaDow
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- C J Murray
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Re: Oil filtration results
Hi Ron,
Did you do any experiments or evaluations regarding the function of the factory bypass system or the factory pressure relief system? If so, did you learn anything interesting?
Did you do any experiments or evaluations regarding the function of the factory bypass system or the factory pressure relief system? If so, did you learn anything interesting?
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- Ron LaDow
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Re: Oil filtration results
Cliff, the engines I've had on the dyno have been T6 and outside of the filtration and the lack of thermostatic control, the factory had the system pretty well developed by then.C J Murray wrote:Hi Ron,
Did you do any experiments or evaluations regarding the function of the factory bypass system or the factory pressure relief system? If so, did you learn anything interesting?
There's 'way too much pressure, but some tests lowering it didn't give us any measurable increase in power, so there really wasn't much reason to pursue that issue. And the thermostat remains in the 'think about it' phase.
Question back atcha: Do you race guys run out of pressure from lateral Gs?
Ron LaDow
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Re: Oil filtration results
With the deep sump and extended pick-up tube the pressure stays steady through the corners.
I was thinking that the big volume and pressure of the late pumps might make the relief valve open regularly; often; even when hot. What do you think? Could you "see" the valve coming in and out during your experiments? Did you try a solid rod in place of the spring?
I was thinking that the big volume and pressure of the late pumps might make the relief valve open regularly; often; even when hot. What do you think? Could you "see" the valve coming in and out during your experiments? Did you try a solid rod in place of the spring?
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