Could this be true?

[Mike Wilson]

My copy of the Kardex shows 2 occasions of "warranty" work in California. The humorous aspect is that it also shows a cost for the work so it wasn't a freebie and therefore not really warranty work.

Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

[C J Murray]

I assume the amount recorded was the amount the factory paid to have the dealer do the work. Warranty just means the dealer gets paid by the factory. Am I missing something?

[Mike Wilson]

Good point, Cliff. I hadn't considered that.

Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

[Jim Nelson]

I'm wondering how a Pebble Beach judge can tell this guy it's matching numbers, when there are no numbers? How does he substantiate that claim?

[Steve Harrison]

Is Mr. Risinger still with us?

[Jim Breazeale]

There's a B on eBay that has as an engine description:
"The car was examine by Pebble Beach Concours judge Paul Risinger and confirmed to have original factory warranty engine block replaced with blank casing and it is considered as matching numbers!!!"


So I ask the group--how is a blank casing considered matching numbers? Does Mr. Risinger have some insight into factory records that he can see this? Would a Kardex show that a blank casing was installed as part of a warranty program, without it being numbered? I have seen third pieces with no numbers on eBay, but as part of a factory exchange?? It seems farfetched.
Please set me straight, as usual….

That sounds like a car that I sold for a neighbor of mine a while back. It was the most original, unrestored, fantastic car I have ever seen. It had a blank engine case because the engine was replaced one month After being delivered to my neighbor's father. The original motor had an oil leak that the dealer was not able to stop, so my neighbor's father insisted that they install another motor. It was done under warrantee when the car was less than 1 month old and never got a motor number or recorded on the kardex. There is a letter documenting the engine change in all the paperwork that accompanied the car. If this car happens to be Light Ivory with a blue interior. I can provide some input.

Regards

Jim

[Jim Breazeale]

Is Mr. Risinger still with us?

Yes

[Jim Breazeale]

What is the item number? I can't seem to find it.

Regards

Jim

[Jim Nelson]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281305092337?ss ... 1423.l2648

[Emil Wojcik]

Even if the engine was replaced under warranty, and even if it did have a new number stamped on the engine by the factory, it's still wouldn't be a numbers matching car.

Numbers matching means the way it originally left the factory. Any replacements after that, even if done by the factory the day after it originally left the factory, are not the original parts, therefore not numbers matching.

Assuming there actually is documentation proving the engine was a factory replacement, that's great...much better than a replacement by some unknown...but still not numbers matching.

[Roy Lock]

Even if the engine was replaced under warranty, and even if it did have a new number stamped on the engine by the factory, it's still wouldn't be a numbers matching car.

Numbers matching means the way it originally left the factory. Any replacements after that, even if done by the factory the day after it originally left the factory, are not the original parts, therefore not numbers matching.

Emil those are pretty high standards to meet. By that I definition, we have no numbers matching cars. If one was to do a standard tuneup you would replace the points and spark plugs. Then the car would not be numbers matching. At the same time I don't think we would advocate drive a car with unsafe brakes and tires just to keep the car as numbers matching.
Today, the current owners of new 991 GTR's will have a big problem because Porsche has already said that the engines are flawed and they will replace each with a new engine.

[TomDoherty]

Emil those are pretty high standards to meet. By that I definition, we have no numbers matching cars. If one was to do a standard tuneup you would replace the points and spark plugs. Then the car would not be numbers matching. At the same time I don't think we would advocate drive a car with unsafe brakes and tires just to keep the car as numbers matching.
Today, the current owners of new 991 GTR's will have a big problem because Porsche has already said that the engines are flawed and they will replace each with a new engine.

Well said Roy Lock - IMO, if Porsche decided to document the change as authorized by the factory on the Kardex, that's good enough for me.

[Emil Wojcik]

Roy, I'm not that extreme.

To me, numbers-matching means all main components with a number that were documented by the factory on the car's original paperwork need to be original to the car.

If we allowed a replacement engine to be considered numbers-matching, is there a time limit after which it's too long after production for it to be matching? In other words, if I were to have Porsche, today, replace my engine with a NOS engine, would it still be numbers-matching just because the factory did it? Not to me.

I know other disagree, but I'm fine with that.

[Adam Wright]

The rule of thumb for matching #s is the numbered case that the car left the Factory with is still with the car.
That's what makes a car like this special, the fact that many cars cannot say this.
My first 356 was matching #s, in fact, when we pulled the motor and re-built it, it had never been opened or the case seperated.

[Roy Lock]

Emil, no arguments with what you believe.

Then there are the cases of cars that had their color changed by dealers. I once worked with a guy who bought a new 912. The original color was Bali Blue. They could not sell it so they repainted it Polo Red. He did not discover this until many years later. Would that be numbers matching?

Then there are the cars which had engine swaps at dealers prior to initial sale. Those are recorded on the Kardex. I have examples of Kardex's that show this. Same for KD engines.

To me all these examples would be numbers matching.... As long as they can prove factory involvement with the work.