Could this be true?

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Jim Breazeale
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Re: Could this be true?

#31 Post by Jim Breazeale »

Jim

That car is not the same car as the one I sold. After reading the description, my built-in BS meter went tilt!

Regards

Jim
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Adam Wright
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Re: Could this be true?

#32 Post by Adam Wright »

I have a stock answer when I am trying to buy a car and someone makes a claim like,
"So and so says it is matching #s" or
"So and so says it is worth X amount"

I say great, get him to buy it!
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Emil Wojcik
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Re: Could this be true?

#33 Post by Emil Wojcik »

Roy Lock wrote:Emil, no arguments with what you believe.

Then there are the cases of cars that had their color changed by dealers. I once worked with a guy who bought a new 912. The original color was Bali Blue. They could not sell it so they repainted it Polo Red. He did not discover this until many years later. Would that be numbers matching?

Then there are the cars which had engine swaps at dealers prior to initial sale. Those are recorded on the Kardex. I have examples of Kardex's that show this. Same for KD engines.

To me all these examples would be numbers matching.... As long as they can prove factory involvement with the work.
I wouldn't call them numbers-matching at all. I would say they were cars with factory-documented history, which is an entirely different subject. Documented history can be just as important as original matching numbers...it's all part of the story, but a different part.
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Roy Lock
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Re: Could this be true?

#34 Post by Roy Lock »

Emil, you know, with this discussion we are shaping and determining what we consider numbers matching. Whether we like it or not. It can result in $$$$$ be the very definition we discuss. That is why I have presented this point of view. I am not an ultra purist. Just keep'm on the road.
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Martin Benade
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Re: Could this be true?

#35 Post by Martin Benade »

Each of will buy cars according to our own standards. Our own definition of numbers matching means little to someone else who has different ideas.
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Craig Richter
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Re: Could this be true?

#36 Post by Craig Richter »

Streeetching the definition of "numbers matching", for whatever reason, doesn't make it so. Roy, we should be reasonable, there are no numbers to match on spark plugs or brake shoes or other "expendable" parts. This discussion should be about day-of-birth matching chassis, motor and transmission numbers. Emil's strict standards are IMHO completely correct. The rest, factory involvement or not, is history. Which must mean that I have the privilege of care taking a very historical 356!
 

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Vic Skirmants
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Re: Could this be true?

#37 Post by Vic Skirmants »

Well posted, Craig
I had someone ask me once if the engine and trans were original on a 1958 RACE car I had for sale.
I guess my answer should have been "hell no".
The car actually did have the original doors and lids!

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tim noble
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Re: Could this be true?

#38 Post by tim noble »

Numbers matching can be in degrees :P I have a 59 and the 2nd owner trashed the original engine in 1980. He replaced it with a tired 58 normal and I replaced that with a 1965 912 engine. All other parts that were numbered are in place so I consider it numbers matching except the engine.
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Craig Richter
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Re: Could this be true?

#39 Post by Craig Richter »

I know you jest a bit, Tim. The German word for exception is "ausgenommen", and I never heard of "ausgenommen…" on any COA. The extra power from that 912 is nice, uh?
 

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Re: Could this be true?

#40 Post by Roy Lock »

Emil Wojcik wrote:Numbers matching means the way it originally left the factory. Any replacements after that, even if done by the factory the day after it originally left the factory, are not the original parts, therefore not numbers matching.
Craig, et Al, before you guys jump on the bash Roy bandwagon, let me refresh you what I was responding to. I DO NOT advocate this. I was only giving an example of how if you follow this definition, we would not have any numbers matching cars. I'm not the guy advocating this. As a matter of fact, if you had read the rest of what I posted you would see that I gave another example of how the factory made many of types of changes that would make it fall out of the "numbers matching" criteria, not my criteria, but some one else's.

So Craig, in closing, please read all of the posts instead of small snippets of sound bits. Take each in and get the jist of the entire conversation. You'll see that all I did was present a contrarian point of view to put a different perspective on the subject.

For record, I don't care what anyone says about this subject because I know what I have and have no intentions of selling my cars. But for those who place a great deal of value on "numbers matching," then it is your pie to slice anyway you want and no one else's.
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Jon Schmid
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Re: Could this be true?

#41 Post by Jon Schmid »

Roy, does this mean you're not selling Pinky?

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Emil Wojcik
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Re: Could this be true?

#42 Post by Emil Wojcik »

Emil Wojcik wrote:Numbers matching means the way it originally left the factory. Any replacements after that, even if done by the factory the day after it originally left the factory, are not the original parts, therefore not numbers matching.
Roy, when I posted the above comment I had made the assumption (obviously an incorrect assumption based on your follow-up comments) that everyone would realize I was referring to parts that were numbered by the factory and are referenced in the car's original paperwork. Sorry I didn't make that clear the first time.

Those parts include the main body/chassis, all opening panels, engine and trans. These are the main parts that are numbered and documented on a 356. (Yes, there are other small parts also carrying the chassis number but in the case of the average 356 no one seems to care about those parts--I don't.)

Had we been talking about a Vette, Mustang, etc., it wouldn't include the opening panels since they weren't numbered to match the chassis, but it certainly includes the engine and trans. In the rest of the collector car markets it's pretty cut and dry--if these parts do not match the car's original build sheet it's not numbers-matching. I don't know why it should be different for a 356.

Any documentation available for a car that shows an engine or trans was replaced by the factory is simply documentation why the car is no longer numbers-matching, which certainly has value, especially when talking about a rare car or one with a pedigree. This documentation can add up to big bucks when it's time to sell.

Sorry if you feel you've been 'Roy bashed'...that was not my intention in the least!
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Re: Could this be true?

#43 Post by Roy Lock »

Emil, my last post is absolutely not directed at you. The best part of forums is that in most cases we can present logical points of view and perspective. It is not intended for open warfare on opposing opinions. In that spirit, I feel we had a great exchange.

But to be direct to some who mentioned my name on this thread and another, I detected a bit of sarcasim and not in the spirit of good conversation. That is the heart of my last post.
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