356 Vin

[Dick Douglass]

The 912 vin.com will help you find a 912 that is Registered.
I am confused as to what the 356 Registry now offers. I know Mr. Bill Block has been asked by the Registry Board to stop asking for vins. Does the 356 Registry now have a site where the owner can volunteer their vin and a record is kept of these numbers like the 912 Registry? If so, can you direct me to the site?
There are other Marque 356 sites such as the Convertible D's. What do they offer?

Mr. Jeff Trask is on another one of his fabulous events in Carmel with the 912 Registry, and maybe when he returns he could explain to us what they do in the 912 Registry.

Jeff, I was hoping to see you Sunday at Dana Point, but Carmel...well there is no finer.
8)

[Gordon Maltby]

Hi Dick,

The 356 Registry chassis / engine/ transmission (aka VIN) database continues to offer a place to record and search for these 356 numbers. Please note the statement I made in an e-letter to all members with email addresses on September 4th:

"Registering" a 356.
In spite of the name chosen by the founders almost 40 years ago, the main focus of 356 Registry has never been to register or compile a list of the cars. The Chassis / Engine / Transmission number database has been an informal adjunct to other club business and a useful tool for members, especially since it has been online at our website. The list, however, is by no means complete or exhaustive, since it is and has always been a voluntary effort; members can list their own cars into the database so that others may use the information for reference, or as a record for future owners.
Because the issue of privacy has become more important over the last several years, access to the database has been changed and a "terms of use" agreement has been made a part of access privileges. Use of the database will be discussed in detail in the near future, but key items are: material is intellectual property owned by Porsche 356 Registry, Inc and is for personal use of Registry members. Users may not distribute or re-publish any of the material.
Please note that any personal information (ownership, names, address, etc.) should be added ONLY by that person, on a voluntary basis. Do not submit personal information about anyone else. Also note that NO ONE is authorized by the club to solicit or gather such information, or to distribute same.
Eric Cherneff and Joe Johnson have worked very hard to streamline the database and strike a balance between usefulness and privacy. If you have questions, please contact them through the database page on our web site.

Once logged in, using the database is pretty intuitive, but If you or anyone else has questions about the mechanics of using the database, please contact Eric or Joe. For questions about the club's privacy and use policies, please contact the membership office or our president.

Gordon Maltby

[C J Murray]

Gordon,
What is the dirt? Who did what that made this an issue? Is somebody suing or threatening to sue the club for disclosing personal data? Are the ambulance chasers mucking up the works again? Can you tell us? OR, are we(members) going to be left in the dark again because management doesn't think that we can handle the truth? Get the problem out into the light of day so that it dies a natural and prompt death...or...just let the rumors fester and have things get blown out of all proportion, like usual.
Cliff

[Larry Brooks]

The database is now and has been useless for the past year or more.
I could care less who owns or has owned a car. It used to be a great place to do research concerning when VIN, Engine #'s and Transaxles were built and how they corresponded to each other. Also very useful in determining what options/ colors/etc where common or rare for certain models.

I don't know who "fixed" it or why.

It also bothers me when someone says that something doesn't really mean what it says. Especially when it has meant EXACTLY that in the past.

What is wrong with the Registry being just that?

[Tim Herman]

I certainly agree that the so-called database is totally redundant and a useless waste of someone's time as I view it currently.

There are at least 2 other sources with the information on my desk now as they have been for years...A Stoddard Parts Catalog and a Spec Book...and there are others...

So, you may ask why was the former Registry database valuable to me?
...as a restorer and without a Kardex on hand we were very often able to answer an inquiry from one who may be interested in a restoration or obtaining a car seen advertised, etc. Often we could just very quickly go the the database and get the info almost instantly as to original paint color, interior color, options and have those answers ready. As to who may have owned the car or submitted the info seldom ever meant anything.

[Gordon Maltby]

Hi Cliff, I took a day and a half off, sorry to be late in responding.

There's no dirt, no crisis, no lawsuit. In fact, the trustees are trying very hard to be proactive so none of those happen.

First, I think we all know the Registry is the club, the database is the list of numbers. Sorry if that confuses anyone, but as much as Jerry Keyser may have wanted it to be a real registry of chassis numbers when he dreamed this up forty years ago, it never has been. It's just a name. The database itself has been a volunteer deal; although we encourage member to take part we have never tried to gather info as a part of the membership process.

In addition to members who have voluntarily placed their car's data in the database, I know there have been a number of individuals who glean these for their own use, like Harry Pellow's engine list, Vic's trans database and others. These numbers can be very useful tools. Some other people have made it a kind of hobby to gather chassis and engine numbers at car shows, holidays, from classified ads, etc. No harm there except maybe when an owner is miffed at someone opening doors or popping their engine lid without asking. And if someone is mining "public" data for their own use (assuming its an ethical use), no big deal. However...

In this office we're the point people for information and concerns, so we get the calls. In the last year or so I have had several from members like this: "I have owned a concours Speedster Carrera for many years, and it was just brought to my attention that the car's chassis and engine number, along with my name and address are listed on the Registry chassis database. I didn't put it there, I don't want it there."

Not everyone who contacts us has a Carrera Speedster, and not everyone is as cooperative as the owner noted above; we've had veiled legal threats. But an input pattern has emerged and it needs to be addressed. Private info should be put into the database only by that person. Few people want someone else posting info about what they own or where they live.

Once in, we have a responsibility to keep private info at least within the confines of our "private" club. The database is only accessible to members. We are instituting a terms of use policy that basically states, "you can use it for your own uses, but it may not be re-published or made public." There have been instances lately where members have copied numbers, names, emails, and addresses from the database and posted them on the talk list - which is a public forum. If we make no effort to control that information, then we really are setting ourselves up for the "ambulance chasers," as you put it.

We have done a few specific things recently. The VIN database is a volunteer effort. If you want your car's info there, excellent. If you DON'T want it there, or if you are not aware it is being placed there, it should not be. We have tried to make it clear to a few repeat offenders that they should NOT solicit information through Registry channels: by answering classified ads with inquiries about VIN numbers; by using the website or Registry webmail to ask for information; and certainly not by stating they have any authorization from the club to do so.
We have also repeatedly asked certain people to refrain from publishing database private information in public forums.

I hope that gives you an overview of the situation. Our policies are still being worked on, but I believe it's clear that we have to protect the private information in the database. The alternative would be to dump every reference to history and ownership, and nobody wants that. You can always contact me for further discussion.

Gordon

Gordon,
What is the dirt? Who did what that made this an issue? Is somebody suing or threatening to sue the club for disclosing personal data? Are the ambulance chasers mucking up the works again? Can you tell us? OR, are we(members) going to be left in the dark again because management doesn't think that we can handle the truth? Get the problem out into the light of day so that it dies a natural and prompt death...or...just let the rumors fester and have things get blown out of all proportion, like usual.
Cliff

[Larry Brooks]

Gordon,

Thank you for taking the time to answer, but I get the distinct impression that no one is paying attention to what we are saying. What is the deal? This conversation turns into a right to privacy & safety discussion when it is just a list of models and equipment - NOT WHO OWNS IT OR WHERE THEY LIVE.

As I said - I could care less who owns a car or who might have owned it before. From conversations I have had with other members I believe that is the same way most of the people who used to use the database feel. So there is no need to show any of those details. A simple "click-on" that would allow someone to contact the owner to ask a question or get more information - that way it would be entirely up to the owner whether they responded or not. If you would like to see how this could work, just go a Craig's List ad and see the contact buttons at the top of the ad.

What is very useful and we used to have was the ability to look up a range of Vehicle, engine or transaxle numbers. That way a person could get an idea of build dates, equipment and colors of the cars. Also how the various component numbers matched up to the cars numbers.

This isn't that difficult and there is no reason to disclose ANY personal information. As Ricky would say - "THIS ISN'T ROCKET SURGERY"

[C J Murray]

Gordon,
Good answer. Thank you. It sounds like the Trustees are being sensitive to the times that we live in and that a few minor red flag actions have them addressing the potential problem. Very sensible. It seems to me that giving addresses would be dangerous. Names could be optional(owner's choice) for member viewing. Or, all ownership information could remain invisible but the "car" could be blind emailed if the owner cared to be made available via email. Why not make the membership application into a questionnaire about the cars owned and give the option for the owner to control what another member(only members!) can view during a search and allow the car owner to choose to accept or not accept emails from other members. A simple computer spread sheet with all of the COA data and the current configuration would be easy to search. If you chose the right list of certain characteristics, like beehive vs. teardrop and high striker vs. low and so on, you could create a fantastic database that would answer more questions then even Brett Johnson ever dreamed up. There is an opportunity here and the car owners would do all the work and privacy could be maintained.
Regards,
Cliff

[Brian OKelly]

Hi Cliff, I took a day and a half off, sorry to be late in responding.

There's ....no lawsuit.

What is the status of R STEPHEN HEINRICHS -VS- 356 REGISTRY INC in the Ohio Courts where The Registry in incorporated ?

[Jim Liberty]

"Right On Tim", I just got a call today from a VW restorer in the area. He has found a Body Bumper Coupe, but the owner won't share the VIN#. But he did get get a picture of the motor number. It was an early 1952 1300, and the car fits. I keep Bret Johnson's hard cover book on my desk, that is the data base I always use.

..................................................Jim.

[Adam Wright]

Since we are talking about ethics and legality and all that stuff, there is one element of the database that has helped me out in the past and I'm sure would help others. By collecting VIN's from every available source, owners, classified ads, etc and putting them in one central place we can cut down on doubling up of cars. You know where three guys have a Speedster, one has the chassis, one has the doors, and another has the motor and the decklid, and they are all restoring Speedster 8XXXX. Well, by having it in the database we could get to the bottom of it, if say a guy had the car listed in 1986, and another guy comes out and says he is building the car. But some of this "data mining" takes a proactive approach, which is what Dr. Block did, tried to get as many numbers in there. Because like it or not, long after we are all gone, these cars will be bought and sold. So just because I remember that such and such car was cut up for parts, doesn't mean I will be around to tell the story years from now. So why can't Dr. Block solicit info from owners, didn't the club itself used to ask for the VIN info on the application, and on the back of the magazine? Send in your info and all that, i.e. Register Your Car in the 356 Registry! Also, if the Registrar of the Registry emails them and ask for their VIN and they give it, isn't that voluntary? Don't they know what they are doing as adults? But this is what Dr. Block is being told not to do, though he was sanctioned to do it for years.
I'm not trying to be a conspiracy guy here but is there more to this? The math isn't working for me and we all suffer as a club if we curtail building history on our cars. I know I am listed in the Registry as having several hundred 356's pass through my hands, and anyone who has ever seen my office knows I take a pic of every car on the trailer for the "Wall of Fame" or the "Rogue's Gallery" as my friend Gerry McCarthy called it when he saw it. But without Dr. Block hounding me for VIN's every few months and getting them in there, many of them would not be in there. And how cool would it be for someone 20 years from now to contact me because they got a car I had, and I could share a pic of it coming out of a barn way back in 2003.
We all suffer if we bring down the Iron Curtain, and future club members will too.

[Larry Brooks]

Wow Adam, I always thought that I had what could sometimes be a devious mind. But now you got me thinking in another direction entirely that I hadn't considered. I don't want to go Grassy Knoll or anything but your comments do bring up an interesting point. A detailed list of serial numbers with good records would certainly be a stumbling block for people with a nefarious agenda.

Interestingly, I actually stumbled onto a bit of that when I was doing some research on the number of SC Cabriolets that were known. While looking through the data I noticed a car I had owned many, many years before. What was particularly interesting was that it now had an "original" door tag that didn't exist and "factory" serial number stamped in front of the gas tank that had been obliterated long ago.

I found the car three years to the day after it was stolen from a Porsche dealers lot. It had been retitled as a 1959 356A by a not very bright thief. He had just rolled it out of a garage with a for sale sign when I drove by. There was no door tag or even the plate it had been mounted on. I opened the hood and there was the "A" coupe number where the Cab number should have been, and it looked funny. I reached under the lip and almost cut my finger on the sharp edges where they had punched the original number before they welded the metal piece with the "A" number in. Then I realized that I had looked at the same car on the dealers lot a few months before it was stolen three years before.

I went to a phone booth(rememeber them?) and called the police. He was arrested and the car was seized. A few months later I was able to buy the car from the insurance company who had paid off the claim. It was then sporting a Blue VIN Tag installed by the state of Oregon where the original number had once been. It had a new 9 digit alpha-numeric number on it that had been assigned by the state of Oregon which included the original 6 digit number at the end. It also had a stern warning that the tag was not to be removed under any circumstances.

I still had a few records for the car and all of the police records so I contacted the owner listed on the Registry to let him know that I would be happy to send the file to him. There was a lot more to the story than I wanted to list here and I think it's a fascinating part of the cars past. I don't think it would have an effect on the cars value either way since it wasn't like it had been a wreck or anything.

But apparently the current owner didn't see it that way and quickly had the record on the Registry obliterated. I realized that he had the Blue Assigned VIN Tag removed (felony) and the "original" numbers stamped back in. And somehow got a title that doesn't show the Assigned number anymore(another felony). While I don't condone his actions, I figured it was none of my business and dropped it.

I'm quite certain that that person would prefer that there is no Registry list.

[Vic Skirmants]

Adam, you are 100% correct, and I agree wholeheartedly.
BUT!!! Since the Registry is being sued, everything has changed.

[Steve Harrison]

What is the Registry?

Is it this forum?
The magazine?,
The Holidays' sponsor?

The definition, both past and going forward is the discussion at hand it seems....

[Larry Brooks]

Vic,
I'm not clear on how the lawsuit relates to this matter?

My understanding was the suit pertained to financial records not being made available. And as a side note how the person who was asking for those records was treated when he persisted.

Maintaining a registry of the cars with all of the pertinent information EXCEPT ownership can't be construed as relevant to that suit in any way that I can see.

Am I missing something here?