help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

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florian beck
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help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#1 Post by florian beck »

I"m a little stuck on where to mount the Mirrors on my car?? any thoughts on this anyone?
I do really like the black one.
dsc_0210.jpg
or
068x1large.jpg
then witch Mirror Talbot-Berlin Mirror http://www.sierramadrecollection.com/st ... tail&p=392
or Aero Mirror, Convex
http://www.sierramadrecollection.com/st ... tail&p=389

as well as the door wedge, was this in the original car? 356A T2 58 or aftermarket?
there in my car but not shore if this is original part.??
M91.jpg
hope anyone can help..
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Jim Karaba
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#2 Post by Jim Karaba »

For 58 the mirrors should be on the door. If you look at the hinge area of the door shell you will see a large round hole near the top that get a plastic plug. This hole was added to access the mirror mounting nuts.

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Perry Pessia
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#3 Post by Perry Pessia »

Were fender mirrors a dealer-installed option? That's where mine are.

Perry
'59 Coupe

E Rutherford
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#4 Post by E Rutherford »

Perry,
Jim is correct regarding the placement of the mirror. Sometimes you can look or feel inside the door where the original holes were ("bondo worms" or weld plugs).

Your issue is going to be whether or not you can actually see out of the mirror, assuming your using the Aero mirror. The current reproduction mirror head has a lower mounting bubble, then the original, thus not allowing enough adjustment for the driver to see out it while in the seat.

There have been more little tricks done to the mirror heads, the mounting bolts and placement of the mirror, just so that one can see out of it, then there are fishing lures!

The mirrors all come from the same source, so buying them from us (klasse356.com), Stoddard or Sierra sin't going to solve the problem.

We had a customer that preferred the talbot mirror with parabolic mirror on both sides seemed to satisfy his visual needs.

Regarding the "thumper" or door wedge, yes that is appropriate for your model car.

ed
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Jim Alton
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#5 Post by Jim Alton »

According to Brett Johnson’s The 356 Porsche, A Restorer’s Guide to Authenticity, Rev. III, page 65:

The three commonly seen types of mirrors were the Aero, Ponto-Stabil and Durant styles. The first cars on the Registry survey to have the Aero-style mirrors were of 1955 production. These were generally fitted through 1961. The T-6 Bs usually were fitted with the Ponto-Stabil varieties (the base seals of this mirror was grey rather than black). Several period photos showed Ponto-Stabil mirrors on356As. Durant mirrors were fitted to 356C models as well as early 911s. Talbot mirrors were available as options as early as 1960. As with other mirrors, they could be fitted on both driver’s and passenger’s sides.

In captions to pictures of the mirrors, Dr. Johnson points out there are two styles of Ponto-Stabil mirrors and at least the latter was made by Talbot, hence Sierra Madre Collection refers to the "Talbot-Berlin Mirror."

When Dr. Johnson refers to a Talbot mirror, he’s referring to a bullet-shaped mirror which was optional on 356Cs early 911s.

By the way, I also know of one very late 1959 356A Cabriolet which appears to have had a Ponto-Stabil mirror since new. I can't find any outside rear-view mirrors in the parts books. I have some scans of Porsche brochures, some show the mirrors from good angles, some don't.
Page 8 from a February 1959 Accessories brochure.  This mirror is only described as "Outside rear-view mirror (standard equipment for Germany)."  The adjusting nut makes it an Aero mirror.
Page 8 from a February 1959 Accessories brochure. This mirror is only described as "Outside rear-view mirror (standard equipment for Germany)." The adjusting nut makes it an Aero mirror.
Page 9 from the "Racy Elegance" brochure [M&M 131, September 1957] shows a Cabriolet Interior with a side mirror.  The angle makes it hard to tell whether it's an Aero or Ponto-Stabil.
Page 9 from the "Racy Elegance" brochure [M&M 131, September 1957] shows a Cabriolet Interior with a side mirror. The angle makes it hard to tell whether it's an Aero or Ponto-Stabil.
Page 10 from the "Racy Elegance" brochure [M&M 131, September 1957] shows a Speedster with a side mirror.  It definitely is an Aero mirror.
Page 10 from the "Racy Elegance" brochure [M&M 131, September 1957] shows a Speedster with a side mirror. It definitely is an Aero mirror.
To avoid confusion on the two different Talbots:
The "bullet-shaped" Talbot, shown here on an early 911.
The "bullet-shaped" Talbot, shown here on an early 911.

As to where they should be mounted, well it's your car. I'm confident the factory mounted all the mirrors on the doors, but if cars arrived without mirrors, mirror position could be determined by the guy with the drill.

In Great Britain, cars had "wing mirrors" mounted near the front axle's position well into the seventies. Since the first sports cars most Americans saw were British, lots of folks could have formed an opinion that sports cars should have their mirrors mounted out on the fenders. I personally don't find that attractive on Porsches.
 
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Jim Alton
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#6 Post by Jim Alton »

I have heard parts suppliers claim that the latest reproduction Aero mirrors can be adjusted so you can see properly. I haven't tested one.

Is your second photo--the green coupe--a pre-A? I've seen mirrors like that on really old cars.
 
Jim Alton
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Eric Wahlberg
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#7 Post by Eric Wahlberg »

I saw a film from an early 60's PCA Parade and it was interesting to note the variety and placement of outside mirrors. Some looked to be British or American aftermarket variety while the majority were German. Most were door mounted and some on the fender. Since these mirrors were generally a dealer installed item, the type and placement variables should not be considered to be as delivered from the factory.

As a side note, I was involved with the restoration of a two owner '68 911S Softwindow Targa a couple of years ago that has 2 Talbot mirrors mounted on the fenders. Pictures from the original owner verified that it came that way from the factory plus, the CoA states the car was supplied with 2 Talbot mirrors.

Never say never, particularly the older the car may be.
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Jim Alton
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#8 Post by Jim Alton »

According to both 356C and early 911 accessory catalogs, Talbot mirrors were delivered "not mounted." Talbot mirror placement was up to either the owner or somebody working at the dealership.
 
Jim Alton
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Brian R Adams
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#9 Post by Brian R Adams »

I believe if you mount a small mirror like the Aero forward on the fender it will be all but useless. My Aero is on the door (from the factory) and it is in the perfect position. I adjust mine for the blind spot. Lean my head a fraction closer to the door and I can see essentially straight behind. Lean a little forward and I can see the foremost part of the blind spot (nearly abeam.) I've developed a small rocking motion to quickly scan from far behind right through the blind spot, without having to look over my shoulder (and take my gaze off the road ahead.) I can't imagine having the mirror mounted forward on the fender, the range of view would be extremely limited.

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John Allen
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#10 Post by John Allen »

When I purchased my 59 T2 in 1976, it had an Aero mirrors mounted on each fender. I left them there and it was my only car for ten years. Perhaps because I had a much younger back and neck, visibility did not seem a problem. Seeing out the back window, which was enlarged the next year with the B cars, was more of a problem.

But the consensus leans toward door mounts. I 'm doing a rolling resto, so maybe I should switch them to the doors.

John
 

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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#11 Post by Dick Weiss »

I just serviced a very low mileage '58 Speedster which had the ugliest twin mirror location 1/2 way between the headlights and the A pillars! Luckily the interior mirror existed!
Someday, they'll be removed--not soon enough.

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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#12 Post by Al Zim »

The rubber door wedge started with the 100001 series of T1 cars. I am not sure exactly when this started but my car is a 7 June 1957 when it left Reuitter. It has the wedge. As the car moved to the T-2 model, and t-1 parts were used up the cars became more like t-2 cars. My car came with mirrors on both doors. You could not see out of either one. I then put a convex paste on mirror on the mirror and that helped. I am looking for a inside mirror that has capability of seeing out the seeing out the sides. The Wink mirror is suppose to have this. Any suggestions in this area would be appreciated.
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Chip Flor
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#13 Post by Chip Flor »

The T-2'a door mounted either the Aero Mirror or the Ponto Stabil mirror.
The Aero was door mounted on non wing windowed doors. (Coupes, speedsters).
The Ponto was door mounted on the cars with the wing windows. (Cab.)
This reiterates the previously mention original described above.

The T-1 and the pre A the factory recommended a fender mounted Ponto Stabil (kidney shaped mirror)
As per Christopherus article: The Rear Mirror and the Horse by Richard Von Frankenberb pgs. 23-25 The Best of Christopherus 1956-1962
 

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Chip Flor
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#14 Post by Chip Flor »

The T-2'a door mounted either the Aero Mirror or the Ponto Stabil mirror.
The Aero was door mounted on non wing windowed doors. (Coupes, speedsters as per section 68 page 556 of the factory A parts book).
The Ponto was door mounted on the cars with the wing windows. (Cab.)
This reiterates the previously mention original cabriolet described above.

The T-1 and the pre A, the factory recommended a fender mounted Ponto Stabil (kidney shaped mirror) 644.78.801(listed in the A parts book "as mounted on fender"
As per Christopherus article: The Rear Mirror and the Horse by Richard Von Frankenberb pgs. 23-25 The Best of Christopherus 1956-1962; clearly shows pictures of the Ponto mounted on the fender as it describes the "kidney" shaped mirror and also states it as "factory recommended".

*what is relevant is that the pre A and the T-1 did not come with a door access plug which came on T-2's (thus the fender mounted mirrors because it was a more practical installation).
* the factory supposedly used a Ponto for the T-2 cabriolet because an obstructed viewing issue because of the wing window.
 

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Chip Flor
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Re: help needed on placing Mirrors on my 356A 58/59 T2

#15 Post by Chip Flor »

Here are some T-2 factory photos which corroborates the Cab (wing window) utilized the Ponto mirror where the Coupes and Speedsters (and Convertible D) utilized the "Aero" door mounted mirror.
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