On headlight lenses....

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Brooks Herrick
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#106 Post by Brooks Herrick » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:35 pm

Can someone with more knowledge than I have, provide some info. regarding the headlights in the attached photos?
This is what I think I know:
Housing and reflector stamps: 35L means the 35th week of 1953
Bezel: Single rivet means pre 1954.
What appears confusing is the lens is non fluted, yet there is a bulb (non sealed beam). And...there is a VW logo on the lens. Is it possible that on early Porsche cars, VW lenses were used? Is it possible the non fluted lens was replaced with a VW clear lens? I can not find any more info as to what all the other letters and numbers mean. The underlying question is....what do I have? Thanks in advance.


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Attachments
Hella headlight assembly.JPG
Hella headlight assembly.JPG (153.6 KiB) Viewed 10028 times
Hella 13L.JPG
Hella 13L.JPG (229.22 KiB) Viewed 10028 times
Hella single rivet.JPG
Hella single rivet.JPG (203.56 KiB) Viewed 10028 times
13L.JPG
13L.JPG (330 KiB) Viewed 10028 times
Hella Lens.JPG
Hella Lens.JPG (62.91 KiB) Viewed 10028 times

Jan Kolm
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#107 Post by Jan Kolm » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:53 am

"13 L" is 13th week of 1953. The assembly should have a symmetric fluted Hella lens with no VW logo (silver painted bucket exterior and no "SB" in the part number stamped on the bucket indicates a non-sealed beam assembly).

The sealed beam lens shown is late 1955/early 1956 VW, with no "vestigial oval" in the center of the lens.
Jan Kolm
356 Registry #1066
1960 1600N Coupe

Brooks Herrick
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#108 Post by Brooks Herrick » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:27 pm

Thank you Jan for identifying the headlights and calling out the mismatch that has occurred between the buckets and lenses. Would you (or anyone else) happen to have a photo of the correct lens for these headlight buckets?

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James Davies
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#109 Post by James Davies » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:46 pm

The correct lens would be a fluted lens with a very small Hella logo in an oval at the bottom.

These Hella non-sealed beam headlights were not used on Porsches in 1953. Though a good number of the sealed-beam headlights came with the fluted lenses in 1952-53.

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Re: headlight lens

#110 Post by Richard Koenig » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:33 pm

Thanks, Jan, for your comments about the SB 19-21 lenses.
Unfortunately I am now confused because I thought these lenses started much earlier, around 1959. Also, I don't know now which headlight rings are correct and which headlight units should be used. I have several NOS headlight rings with the 5 & 7 holes at the bottom and some restored buckets for the same with holes for parking light bulbs.
Is there a summary chart somewhere that I could refer to? If so, will you kindly send me a reference?
Thanks, Dick Koenig, Denver.

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Re: headlight lens

#111 Post by Jan Kolm » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:01 am

Dick,

There are three basic varieties of Hella rings with holes at 5 and 7 o'clock used on 356s.

The first type has a single rivet securing the mounting tab and a rolled inner lip. These were used until sometime in 1954.

The second type has two rivets securing the mounting tab and a rolled inner lip. These were used 1954-55.

The third type has two rivets and no rolled inner lip. These were used from about the end of calendar year 1955 to the end of calendar year 1963.

As for the buckets w/parking light holes--if they are the type with the single, bail type spring across the bottom, there are no real differences 1956-63, other than the paint.
- 1956-58: Gloss black w/ silver inside
- 1959: Silver inside and out
- 1960-63: Matte gray inside and out

U.S. market 356Bs do not use the parking light in the bucket - a blanking plate was used 1960 - ~1962 and the hole was eliminated during the 1962 or 1963 model years. I do not believe Brett Johnson has well-defined transition points by chassis numbers.
Jan Kolm
356 Registry #1066
1960 1600N Coupe

mike shaver
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#112 Post by mike shaver » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:30 pm

I read the thread that you refer to, and it is helpful, if one is requesting a 'correct' lens for a specific car. So, if one was looking for the correct lens for a '61B, the information in the thread suggests what stamping is to be shown on the lens for that car, along with some nice additional discussion.

However, I was trying to do the opposite -- rather than asking "what lens stamping is correct for this car?" I am asking "these are the lens stampings. what car is correct for a lens with those stampings?" So, I have a stack of lenses, and I am trying to find out what models correlate with the stampings on those lenses, in order for me to market them with proper provenance.

So, to give some examples, I have pulled 3 lenses from the stack, each of which has the following information:

#1: Hella symbol at bottom, with #s "SB19 SB20 SB21" ABOVE THE "Hella," and the #s "17-60 370-3" plus "Made in Germany."

#2: Hella symbol at bottom, with # "51SB" above the "Hella," and #s "2-60570-1" plus "Made in Germany"

#3: Hella symbol at bottom, with no numbers above the 'Hella," and #s "26-25484" plus "Made in Germany."

what I am hoping to do was to find a reference source that would begin with the stamping and tell me the car/model that matched those stamped numbers. My hope/intent was to post a for sale ad for lenses, with a list of the stampings on each lens, and the car year/model that matches those lenses. (I have not inventoried the #s on the entire stack of lenses that I have, but you get the idea.)

Does that make sense to anyone other than me?

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Re: On headlight lenses....

#113 Post by jay harris » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:47 am

Any information on when Bosch 4487 lenses were used?

thanks, jay

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Re: On headlight lenses....

#114 Post by Jan Kolm » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:59 pm

jay harris wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:47 am
Any information on when Bosch 4487 lenses were used?

thanks, jay
Jay,

If the 4400-series numbers were assigned chronologically by its respective government or independent standards body, 4487 would be from no earlier than the mid-to-late 1960s. The Bosch 4430 appears to be the asymmetric lens typically used on LHD 356 Bs and Cs. The Hella 4475 is commonly found on mid-1960s home-market VWs.
Jan Kolm
356 Registry #1066
1960 1600N Coupe

jay harris
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#115 Post by jay harris » Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:51 am

Thanks, Jan - I need to replace both lenses on my '65 SC coupe. I don't know where the car was delivered, but it doesn't have sealed beams. The lenses on it now are both the 4487, but I'm not sure if they are original. I would like to get replacements that are mostly correct for the car.

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Steven Midgett
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#116 Post by Steven Midgett » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:07 pm

Jay,

My '64 SC Euro coupe has the 1 305 614 027 (4487) headlamp lens set.

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Steven Midgett
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#117 Post by Steven Midgett » Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:44 am

PET diagram shows a few lenses. 4430 356 B, 4474 356 B/C, 4487 356 C.
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Jan Kolm
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#118 Post by Jan Kolm » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:49 am

This helps a lot with trying to date the post-1959 asymmetric lenses, without taking the headlamps apart.

I have seen 4430 lenses on eBay with the 10-digit, 1964 and later Bosch part number cast into the lower left face of the lens, so they were available into the 356C era, at least as replacements. I have never seen a 4474 lens. If the 4487 lenses are original, they will have the tell-tale pitting of daily driver use.

However the 911 (901) part number is the same for all three E1 lens types. Does this mean you could special order any of the three lens types, or you got whichever type is currently available?

A general question I have is how far do the lenses protrude beyond the chrome ring around the edges by type? The later lenses protrude about 1cm (sealed beam lenses are almost flush in comparison).
Jan Kolm
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1960 1600N Coupe

jay harris
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#119 Post by jay harris » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:35 am

Thanks, Steven and Jan - this is the information I wanted to help make my decision. It looks like Sierra Madre has the Bosch brand 4487 lenses available. Any other sources I should check before buying?

Steve Midgett
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Re: On headlight lenses....

#120 Post by Steve Midgett » Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:31 pm

Aasesales and Stoddard perhaps.

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