Oil Re Dux - Simple Answer

[David Jones]

Sorry! Forgot to add the link. Old age I guess. Here it is.

http://www.zddplus.com/index.htm

[Kevin E Davis]

This weekend, the TN Tubs had a great tech session (thanks, Carl George - what a venue!)wherein Charles spoke about oils. He covered a wide range of issues, brought many samples & held up well under the withering fire of numerous curmudgeons.

My take-away is that the API's latest oil formulation ("SM") is optimized for current & near future requirements driven by technology (such as low pressure valve springs & desire for high economy via very low friction), market economies & gov regulation (latest gen cat conv that must last until the warranty expires - this is at the heart of how the chemistry has been changed in a manner not suited for pre-cat era motors). These factors have conspired to yield an oil chemistry different than what our old air-oil cooled motors prefer. While new oil is informed by many technical advances, that no longer means (ipso facto) that it is superior for our old motors. Certainly, if you use your motor sparingly, then it will be a long time before you note any negative effect - perhaps the next owner?

While I am not from Missouri, I do ascribe to their motto - Prove It!. I am unimpressed with the oil & engine manufacturers assertions about the utility of SM formulations for explicitly addressing the requirements of old, high perf/high rev, flat tappet, air-oil cooled motors. I am more impressed with the experience of engine rebuilders who would be happy to endorse easily available & cheap "new" oil - if it worked. Interestingly, I stumbled upon the completely independent experience of a Chevy small block race engine (flat tappet, dry sump, 7500 rpm) rebuilder that parallels that of Porsche rebuilders - & I don't think these guys hang out at the same bars.

Of course, do whatever you want, but as for me, I don't assume a damn thing anymore. I am weening my 356s from RotellaT, while I already have Brad Penn in the '87 911 (replacing Mobil1 15-50). So far, I am pleased.

[JOEL JENSEN]

Missouri's motto is actually 'Show me' but 'Prove it' is close enough for any but the most
curmudgeonly among us

[Guest]

I don't question the value of the zinc content in oil
having a good effect but again I am asking what do you see
as a result of having a low amount of zinc in the oil? Here
in California I have many customers that use their 356's as
daily drivers and many of them are original owners. It is
not uncommon to have customers that use their cars 8000+
miles a year and some even more. I think my shop is
different from most shops in that I see at least 6+ 356's
each week and these are regularly driven 356's.

Alan

JOEL JENSEN wrote:

Joel,
All this discussion of zinc in the oil has lead me to this
question: I know the zinc acts as a lubricant but what are
the signs in a 356 motor of low zinc content? I know the
high zinc levels are for "flat tappet" motors but of all the
motors I have taken apart none show any unusual tappet wear
with stock tappets. The only tappets I have seen that wore
poorly were some type of after market ones that were all
black and had the same sizes as the ATE ones, but these are
rare.
Many of the motors I dissemble are 100,000+ and show
normal wear on the parts. Perhaps modern oils have other
compounds that take up the lower zinc levels.

Alan


Alan,
Your observations could be true, or perhaps the majority of the miles were
run while older varieties of oil with zinc were in use. It could also be a
situation similar to the valve seat wear question where the problem of soft
metals needing the lead provided in older fuels proved to be moot in 356
engines because of the Rockwell hardness of our seat inserts. Whatever
the reality may be, I'll go with Charles' reccommendations and err on
the side
of caution. Oil is cheap and oil with zinc or at least adding some STP
with zinc
to your 'modern' oils is for me, at the least psychological protection.
Wink
Regards,
Joel




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[Jon Wright]

Jim: Have to agree with Joel and Kevin on their comments. I actually organized the TN Tubs Tech session inviting Charles Navarro and Jake Raby to speak to us at Carl Georges's wonderful new facility just south of Nashville. They have done extensive research and study of oils for our engines and are very satisfied with the formulation, service and results that Brad Penn 20w - 50w provides for our engines and other older engines. The oils you once used are just not of the same formulations they once were. Kevin Davis did an excellent explanation in simple terms about this. There are other oils that have Zinc and Phosphates in them, but seem to be more expensive. I do recommend Brad Penn Green 20w - 50w Racing oil. Go to Brad Penns web site and ask for a local distributor. It really is not as difficult to get as some may think. May not have to order it in and pay big shipping cost.

Also, it is recommended that you change the oil every 6 mos no matter the mileage driven due to possible condensation build up from weather changes and limited usage. Oil is cheap compared to a proper engine rebuild.

My .02 cents worth and I'm getting the Castrol GTX 20w-50w out of my 82 911 tomorrow.

[JOEL JENSEN]

[quote="Alan Klingen"]I don't question the value of the zinc content in oil
having a good effect but again I am asking what do you see
as a result of having a low amount of zinc in the oil? Here
in California I have many customers that use their 356's as
daily drivers and many of them are original owners. It is
not uncommon to have customers that use their cars 8000+
miles a year and some even more. I think my shop is
different from most shops in that I see at least 6+ 356's
each week and these are regularly driven 356's.

Alan

Alan,

I see nothing from a low amount of zinc since I have always maintained at least
a minimum level by the addition of STP to my oil and I want to keep it that way.
I now use Brad Penn and can skip the additive. I am just another old car owner
who, as I stated previously, wants to err on the side of caution. As you say, 'I don't
question the value of the zinc content in oil having a good effect'.

Joel

[Charles Foster]

This is the same thing Larry Markham said when I asked him what oil he recommends. As of earlier this year, he still endorsed Castrol 20/50. He sees a fair amount of 356s each week - I've been at his shop when he had 10.

Charles


--
Charles Foster
hc_foster@hotmail.com (hc_foster@hotmail.com)
http://www.northForkDesigns.net/Porsche356/

Subject: [356Talk] Oil Re Dux - Simple Answer
From: stable356@earthlink.net
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:37:14 -0700
To: 356talk@356registry.com

Joel,
All this discussion of zinc in the oil has lead me to this
question: I know the zinc acts as a lubricant but what are
the signs in a 356 motor of low zinc content? I know the
high zinc levels are for "flat tappet" motors but of all the
motors I have taken apart none show any unusual tappet wear
with stock tappets. The only tappets I have seen that wore
poorly were some type of after market ones that were all
black and had the same sizes as the ATE ones, but these are
rare.
Many of the motors I dissemble are 100,000+ and show
normal wear on the parts. Perhaps modern oils have other
compounds that take up the lower zinc levels.

Alan

JOEL JENSEN wrote:

I'll have to take exception to Barry's comment about 'any modern oil
being acceptable'.
Most of the new formulations have little if any Zinc to protect your
mechanical cam followers from wear. At least add a bottle of STP for 4
cylinder cars (red bottle) to your oil as it will provide a minimal
amount of zinc. For the extra few bucks use the best, Brad Penn Racing
and for the heat of New Mexico the 20 - 50 weight would be best. Zims
sells it and discounts it when buying 2 or more cases, Lucky you, they
are in Texas so the shipping shouldn't be too bad. Good clean oil is the
best and least expensive protection you can give your car in combination
with regular maintenance, valve adjustments, lubes etc. Wink

------------------------
Alan Klingen
Owner, The Stable

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[Jake Raby]

Those who are depending on their previous experiences with certain oils and have closed their minds to the facts about today's oils and flat tappet vintage engines are not doing themselves, or their customers any favors.

The issues don't pop up in a day or two and to some the issues they cause can be quite mysterious. Yesterday certainly won't determine tomorrow and without most people in this industry even knowing it oils are changed 2-3 times per year. The oil that you put into your car in January might have been reformulated into something totally different in April, but no one will tell you this. We have had to spend thousands of dollars and even have built test engines and fixtures to attain the data needed to support the research.

Castrol GTX gave us THE WOST results of any oil in EVERY test we have subjected it to from HP and torque tests to used oil analysis tests.

I also used GTX, but now I would only pour it into my enemy's vehicle... All it takes is paying attention to the engine and some used oil analysis from several different engines to see the differences.

The unfortunate fact is most builders and mechs will stick with what has worked for them in the past and they will fight tooth and nail to beat this into other people's brain housing groups. What they don't realize (because they haven't done any studies or paid attention) is the oil they once used, is no longer that same oil and hasn't been!

This is not a problem found only with the 356, our counterparts with Mopars, Chevys and etc have the same issues and they are also learning the hard way that the oils are not what they were. Some of those who have lost the largest amount of engines are closed minded individuals that are set in their ways. One of my competitors lost 31 engines before they finally decided to open their damn ears to the issues that we had known about for years and of course they have been in business for 35 years-

Todays oils are not formulated for our cars, NO modern car today uses flat tappet cams, everything is roller lifters or S/DOHC and equipped with catalytic converters and very sensitive oxygen sensors that can be severely damaged when using an oil rich with zinc.. Roller cams and S/DOHC don't depend on zinc and other elements nearly as much as our engines..

In some instances older engines with loose tolerances and some "worn" parts will favor some of the inferior oil formulations a bit better than a new engine. New engines are the most critical!!! I have seen engines not even make it 100 miles when something mysterious happens.. Others would overlook the root of the issue and just repair it, only to make the same oil mistake again and cost another failure. One individual we know did that 4 times before he finally listened! Of course, he had "been doing this" for 35 years and had become unaware of his surroundings and had lost his enthusiasm, becoming totally complacent. He finally boxed the customers parts up and gave them back to him unassembled, his ass thoroughly kicked because he was too dense to listen!

The Owner put it back together and listened to recommendations, it now has 2500 miles on it and the best part is the fact that he had never built an engine before!

These issues are real, nothing is made up and when accelerated wear from lack of proper formulations bites you in the tail, you won't like it when "I told ya so" pops up.

[Michael Eker]

Anybody tried this stuff:

http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cf ... er=1052367

Check out the zinc content.

meker

[Jake Raby]

Yes.

But it is a "band aid" that some will use instead of purchasing an oil with a sufficient base stock and formulated additive package.

We have yet to test a single additive that helped a poor oil to be as effective as one that came off the shelf correctly formulated. Experience has taught us to stay away from additives. It has also taught us that too much of a good thing can be just as bad, or worse than not enough.