How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

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Richard Troy
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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#61 Post by Richard Troy » Thu May 16, 2013 5:04 pm

Fred Gruendig wrote:Richard,
Are you saying other alcohols "instead" of ethanol are used in gasoline today?
I was under the impression that when alcohol was added to gasoline to reduce emissions that alcohol was always ethanol.
Fred
Hi Fred,

I was quoting someone else, and they were saying that there are various other alcohols used. Unfortunately I didn't take notes, but they were specific and I believe them. That dialogue included discussion of alcohol used as a fuel without being blended with gasoline, as well as other blends of fuels. Since I can't quote it very accurately, perhaps I shouldn't have brought it up! ...No, I don't recall them mentioning a different alcohol used with gasoline other than ethanol, but I may be mistaken!

I am just back from my road-trip (about 6000 miles), however, and I can report a few things. The route was: San Francisco Bay Area to LA via I-5, to Tucson AZ and then New Orleans via I-10, then to Asheville, NC via various highways through Atlanta, and finally back west, mostly on I-40. The highest altitude I recall was 6000 feet, warmest was 97F, and coldest was in the low 40s with rain.

First of all, the situation has changed a bit since my trip several years ago. Part of this may be due to the fact that after I lost an engine due to buying less than 84 octane fuel that was labeled as 91 at a Citgo station (IIRC) in Balmorhea, Texas (I-10, a bit west of Fort Stockton and a bit East of where I-20 intersects) I have avoided non-major-brand stations when road-tripping. Either way, unlike my trip a few years previous, I didn't discover ANY other labeling than "may contain up to 10% ethanol" during the entire trip EXCEPT for two stations that made a really big deal about offering "pure gas".

From a running point of view, there was only one time I wish I'd had in a fatter jet. I ran 115 in the Webers the whole way, and at one point I was certain that 120 would have been a better choice. But by the time I figured it out, it was too late - that fuel was burned already - and conditions had changed, too. (Remember, carbs are always a compromise and in a street car are rarely tuned optimally for temperature, altitude, load, etc.)

There were two points, however, where the conditions appeared to put the engine in perfect tune and I got an extra 10 miles per hour or so out of the beast! It was fun!

Regards,
Richard
Richard Troy, http://356Coachworks.com
Land Speed Record Holder
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Neil M. Fennessey
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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#62 Post by Neil M. Fennessey » Fri May 17, 2013 9:17 am

Richard,

Nice to see you back gracing these discussions.

What's with the Land Speed record in your signature?



Back to the Ivory Tower I go!
Back to the Ivory Tower I go!
 - Neil
'67 912/356D (Ol' Blue)
'82 HP 34C

Richard Troy
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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#63 Post by Richard Troy » Sat May 18, 2013 8:17 am

Neil M. Fennessey wrote:Richard,

Nice to see you back gracing these discussions.

What's with the Land Speed record in your signature?



Back to the Ivory Tower I go!
Hi Neil,

What a kind note! ... As for land speed racing, I've been campaigning a Denzel powered Karmann Ghia at Bonneville since 2009... You can read up here:

http://GhiaCoachworks.com/share/denzel_lsr.html

Feel free to let me know what you think - 0ff-thread maybe!

Oh, by the way, I do both "356 Coachworks" and "Ghia Coachworks", if that isn't otherwise obvious! Just substitute "356" for "Ghia" in the URL above, as in 356Coachworks.com, to find the other site.

Regards,
Richard
Richard Troy, http://356Coachworks.com
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George Walling
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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#64 Post by George Walling » Sat May 18, 2013 4:56 pm

Richard, Glad to see your back and had a good trip. I also see you have 2 engines for sale. I f anyone is interested in them and want reference why feel free to give them my contact in formation. My engine now has almost 1900 miles on it and is doing great. The more miles I get on it the more power it seems to be making. it runs so smooth especially after precision matters rebuilt my Zeniths. I'll e-mail you later when I get some time but glad to see you are back. Take Care
George E Walling

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#65 Post by Mike Horton » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:36 am

...stumbled on to this today...

http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/warnings-not-to-use-e15-gas-in-your-car/?intcmp=sem_outloud
Mike

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#66 Post by William Noroski » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:18 pm

I wrote an answer here, Submitted it and it dissappeared . Why??? Where did it GO///

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#67 Post by William Noroski » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:13 am

Hi 356 Guys. I have read ALL your remarks with interest. Let's face it. Whether we like it or not, we have to live with it . ETHANOL in gasoline is BAD. It's subject to phase separation if left sitting for any length of time and it is HYGROSCOPIC (absorbs water which leads to corrosion and rusting of metal parts ie gas tanks -carb parts, etc) and ETHANOL is an excellent detergent . It attacks most anything. It will soften and degrade rubber gas lines and in some cases dissolve plastic and/or fiber gaskets. I know this from experience.
I own and maintain two 356s. An original A coupe with Zeniths and a C coupe with Solex carbs.I have a ritual that I go thru each year. I've done this for 50 years ---- IT WORKS
On both cars , i use STABIL (as directed) It must be added at fillup so that it is well mixed and reaches the carburators before the car is stalled out, fogged , and all openings to the engine are sealed for the duration of the storage season. On the C, I fill the tank to the top with a charge of the freshest , best gasoline available. BUT, The procedure is a little different on the A. I run the STABIL TREATED gas level down to below the reserve level. Depending on the gas level in the tank , i sometimes SIPHON off excessive quantities of gas. On a lift , where the car remains for the duration, i run the engine until it stalls from lack of fuel, fogging the intakes as it makes the the very last revolutions. Then i drain the remaining fuel from beneath the car at a low point in the fuel line .
Now get this---- Lower the lift. Wipe DRY the last residues of liquid gasoline with clean ,lintless cloths. I can get my entire arm in the A tank . If you cannot not , use various , clean sticks or rods ,to reach the far, lower corners of the tank. But, be careful not to damage the fuel level float and actuating rod. Do not leave any standing pools or residues of gas. MIST the interior of the tank with STABIL MARINE fogging oil . replace the cap and block off the vent. Seal ALL openings to the engine, ie CARB openings without air cleaners , EXHAUST openings , even the OIL filler and CRANK-CASE VENT and YOU ARE DONE . It's a lot of work but it's worth it . The inside of my tank is as clean as the day it was built . No rust , no residue, not even a stain. Good Luck.in your venture.
Questions ? contact Bill Noroski wjn356@yahoo.com

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#68 Post by C J Murray » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:15 pm

mostly high speed 7000 mile trip to WCH in a 2133cc 616 powered '63 coupe. E10=25mpg real gas=28mpg and ran better. consistent results with multiple fill ups.
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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#69 Post by Mike Horton » Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:50 pm

...after closely tracking mileage on two vehicles, between real gas, and 10% ethanol, over several years, a stock '68 912, & Chevy P/U I owned for 10 yrs. & 194,000 mi., I come up with approximately 11% mileage loss, very close to Cliff's numbers...
Mike

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#70 Post by Brian R Adams » Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:26 pm

This blows up the fallacy that adding ethanol as mandated (10% today, 15% to 85% tomorrow if the EPA gets its way) reduces fossil fuel usage. If reducing the percentage of gasoline by 10% also reduces the MPG by 10%, what has been gained (besides fatter corn growers and corn state tax revenues)? Just askin'.

Brian
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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#71 Post by GregVandenbussche » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:00 am

Hope this might help some people here:
After spending tremendous amount of time tuning my DRLA with a LM2 sensor/gage , I came to the conclusion that the engine run better with E10 at an AFR around 12.5, it sounds rich but appear to be the optimal setting at least for my car...
Bt5 Super - used to be fjord green, was painted brass, then brown... sadness

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#72 Post by Geoff Fleming » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:29 pm

Bill,
How well I remember your wonderful Meissen blue coupe, 'Heidi'! Glad to hear you still own her. Always one of the sweetest A's I've ever seen, and I owned the second to last of the model.( #108916)

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#73 Post by Michael Teleha » Tue Apr 08, 2014 12:34 am

http://www.sta-bil360.com/
Has anyone used STA-BIL 360? thought or comments.

from the web site:
Today’s fuel additives protect the fuel and the parts of the fuel system covered by fuel. STA-BIL® 360° Protection goes above and beyond this, providing the ULTIMATE corrosion coverage. This additive releases a corrosion preventing vapor that coats ALL metal parts of the fuel system, including the fuel tank, fuel sending unit, valves, carburetor/fuel injectors and intake manifold. STA-BIL® 360 Protection is recommended to be used at EVERY FILL UP in collector/muscle cars, motorcycles, ATV’s and any other gasoline engine needing the ultimate corrosion protection from the damaging effects of Ethanol blended fuels.

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#74 Post by Larry Coreth » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:09 pm

Guys,

Not that I'm a big fan of E10, I do like my gasoline straight , no chaser, but Listening to the above discussion one would think that water in gasoline never happen before the advent of Ethanol ! No true, how quickly we forget !
Back in the day condensation and water ingested via the pump at the filling station was a well known problem. I well remember in ’78 one cold winter morning when my ’62 VW bug kept stalling out and would go nowhere. Was I pissed, not to mention freezing my buns? The problem ? ice balls and flakes rolling around the bottom of the float bowl and clogging the main jet. Where did this water (ice) come from, my friendly neighborhood filling station ! No doubt combined with some condensation due to the previous humid weather. Solution, wait till it gets abvoe freezing and add “Dry Gas” a mixture of methanol & Iso-propyl alcohol. BTW, the VW didn’t mind a little water but not ice !
I have seen many a fuel tank rusted serious from water having sat for a long time at the bottom, decades before E10 Phase separation?, with pure gasoline any water goes straight to bottom, doesn’t even wait to build up to a max concentration. At least E10 will absorb some of the condensation that may occur. If you are getting phase separation at bottom of your tank you should, a) drive your car more often, change filling stations or empty the tank and oil it down when letting it sit for while during highly variable weather, i.e. high humidity followed by cold weather. Stab-bil does not contain any alcohol (good) but then it does not absorb any condensation either, which means any water goes to the bottom and stays there. Other fuel stabilizers I understand do contain some alcohol just to absorb any water.
So from my experience, E10 is NOT the end of the automotive world! Remember the predictions of doom & gloom back in the early 70’s when the feds were mandating air pollution equipment, like air pumps lean carburetors, etc. ? Then by the early 80’s when you could not get any fuel over 89 octane as all the manufactures dropped compressions to almost nothing ! The Speedster did not like that crap ! Here we are 20 years later and we have survived it all with the help of computerized fuel injection and ignition! Even the return of 93+ octane fuel has made the Speedster most grateful.!
So guys let us press on regardless, use a little technology to overcome the problems of E10 until some one in DC decides it is no longer good politics to support the ethanol industry, damn the cost.
That’s my rant and I’m sticking to it!!
Larry Coreth
Roanoake Rapids, NC

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Re: How does ethanol in gas affect 356 engine/fuel system?

#75 Post by George Walling » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:11 pm

Or one can move to a state that sells non ethanol fuel, Here in Oregon we can get it in quite a selection of octane. so that is all I use in my classic cars seems my carb gaskets and pump rubbers like it to.
George E Walling

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