1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

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Marc Allingham
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1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

#1 Post by Marc Allingham »

I am about to embark on the restoration of my 1960 356 B. I am debating whether to bring the car back to its original beauty or transform her into a "mild" outlaw. The youtube video (link below) is what sparked the idea. I find this early A to be a spectacular car. The engine sounds awesome. Who owns this baby?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9l6MXbN7Yt0

I have the following questions:

1) Nearly all outlaws that I have found on the web are T5s - Why?
2) Nearly all vintage race cars are T5s - Why?
3) Could I achieve something similar to the youtube 57 coupe with my B?
4) What does this do to both the appeal and value of the car if and when I decide to sell?
5) Are there any rules to follow to increase the appeal and value if I do make it an outlaw?

Thank you for your input!
Marc A.

Thomas Canty
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#2 Post by Thomas Canty »

..
Last edited by Thomas Canty on Tue May 04, 2010 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Barry Brisco
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Re: 1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

#3 Post by Barry Brisco »

Marc Allingham wrote:I am about to embark on the restoration of my 1960 356 B. I am debating whether to bring the car back to its original beauty or transform her into a "mild" outlaw.
1) Nearly all outlaws that I have found on the web are T5s - Why?
I don't know where you've seen T5 outlaws online, but I think that in reality they are fairly well distributed over the various 356 models. I've seen outlaws from the very early cars to the C model. Remember that for every 356 model, within 10 years from being new its value had depreciated dramatically and owners often said "The car's not worth much, might as well make some changes and do something different". Beat up bumpers and overriders weren't replaced (too costly!), they were thrown away and replaced with low cost nerf bars. Beat up hubcaps were ditched and the lug nuts exposed. And so on.
Marc Allingham wrote:2) Nearly all vintage race cars are T5s - Why?
Again, I don't think that is accurate, but I do think it is true that you see more vintage T5 and T6 racers than T2 and earlier. That is probably simply because there were far more T5 and later cars produced, and therefore more have survived. See the production numbers shown at http://356registry.org/tech/production_numbers.html. Porsche produced more than twice as many 356s in the 1960's as they did in the 1950's. Also, the later cars may need fewer suspension modifications for the track than the earlier cars.

Marc Allingham wrote:3) Could I achieve something similar to the youtube 57 coupe with my B?
Of course. Louvered deck lid, no decos, plain bumpers, hood straps, no hubcaps, different mirror, center fill gas tank (that will be pricey), roll bar, etc., all that can be done to a B car. That's a nice looking A outlaw on youtube, in fact it looks familiar. I think I've seen it before.
Marc Allingham wrote:4) What does this do to both the appeal and value of the car if and when I decide to sell?
That will vary tremendously based on the individual, and because the cars vary so much. Some people like outlaws, some don't, it's a personal preference. Since you are not making changes based on the stock configuration, which is a reasonably well-defined standard, you can do whatever you want, and the end result varies tremendously. But I think it's fair to say that in most (not all) cases, outlaws do not have as much market value as cars restored to their stock appearance. And in some cases people make such radical changes to their cars in the pursuit of the outlaw look that very few people would be interested in buying such a car. So be aware that making these kinds of changes is unlikely to increase the market value of your car (there are always exceptions!). If you restrict yourself to changes that can be easily reversed by the next owner, that may help the value. If you make very costly changes that take the car a long ways from stock, you are unlikely to get back your investment when you sell.

Marc Allingham wrote:5) Are there any rules to follow to increase the appeal and value if I do make it an outlaw?
"Rules? In a knife fight?" (quote from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", at which point Paul Newman's character kicks his opponent in the groin and wins the fight immediately). My point being that the very essence of the outlaw "spirit" is that there are no rules.

Speaking only for myself, I like an outlaw 356 done "in period", meaning the changes made to it are in keeping with its vintage character. So the changes as made to that 57 A coupe in the youtube video I happen to admire if done with the proper level of craftsmanship, but putting 1980's-period electric seats, a modern stereo with massive speakers, a center console like a 914, and wide flared fenders are not to my taste.
Barry Brisco
1959 356A Coupe 105553, Ivory / Brown
2009 987 Cayman, Carrera White / Beige (daily driver)

John Bulmer
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#4 Post by John Bulmer »

Hey Marc,

Am going through a similar debate, but in regard to the purchase of a 356. My opinion only is that if you've got a solid cancer free, numbers matching vehicle then I would be going to the original status. If its got issues and needs upgrades anyways, then go to the mild outlaw look.

Would tend to agree with what Tom has said in regard to not doing anything too wild, that can't be "easily" undone in the future, because someone will always want to.

You have to first decide what you really want. If you're in the outlaw phase, then do it because you want to. But one bit of advice is to keep all the old original parts that you might be replacing - at least that way you have a good base to start an original restoration if you change your mind in the future. If you don't do a lot of cutting and hacking on the car, then making it original later is always an option.

And if you're doing the louvered rear hood or exposed gas filler in the front, why not consider getting after market or slightly used components to change and keep the originals for the future.

Just my thoughts at this time and good luck with it. Make sure you keep us all posted on the progress.

jb
John Bulmer
Alberta, CANADA

JOEL JENSEN

#5 Post by JOEL JENSEN »

My first 356 was a 61 T-5 S. Drove it for 110,000 happy miles and sold it with much regret. IMO the reason T-5's are used for racers, outlaws and movie disposables (Eddie Murphy's 'Speedster', the one that gets blown up was a T-5 coupe modified to look like a Speedster, I guess a Speedster fake was more valued) is that they were, and by many, still are seen as one step up from a notchback, (no offense to notch owners intended). Any listing of 'values' for the cars, from Harry, the Maestro, to Jim Schragers 'Driving and Enjoying the 356', places them at the bottom of the pile, with only the notch getting a lower placement on the 'desirability' ladder. They are, as is the notchback, rarer than most, and in the opinion of myself and a few others, beautiful for their quirky amalgam of A and later cars.
356 Outlaws have always existed from day one. People wanting to make their car unique is nothing new. There are 'purists' who own all types of vehicles, old Fords as an example. Then there are the 'outlaws', hot rodders, etc. who's purity is found in doing what they damn well please with their car. I personally enjoy the efforts of both disciplines. As to preserving - enhancing the dollar value of your car, what is in vogue today may be passe' tommorrow. If you bought your car for a monetary investment then you have to invest your time, money and energy in trying to pursue that goal. If you bought your car because you wanted to keep it, bond with it and make it yours, then any restraints are removed and you should do 'as you damn well please', even if that includes making the car original.

Guest

Re: 1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

#6 Post by Guest »

Marc Allingham wrote:I am about to embark on the restoration of my 1960 356 B. I am debating whether to bring the car back to its original beauty or transform her into a "mild" outlaw. The youtube video (link below) is what sparked the idea. I find this early A to be a spectacular car. The engine sounds awesome. Who owns this baby?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9l6MXbN7Yt0

I have the following questions:

1) Nearly all outlaws that I have found on the web are T5s - Why?
2) Nearly all vintage race cars are T5s - Why?
3) Could I achieve something similar to the youtube 57 coupe with my B?
4) What does this do to both the appeal and value of the car if and when I decide to sell?
5) Are there any rules to follow to increase the appeal and value if I do make it an outlaw?

Thank you for your input!
Hi there,

you might want to check out the website of Emory: http://emorymotorsports.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=59
They did several Outlaws and there are a couple of pics on the site.

I would not say that the T5 is prone for outlaw making, I rather have the impression that most modified 356s are T2s ?!

You can still retain originality by adding an sport exhaust and fitting speedster seats without having to go all the way down the outlaw road.
Plus, you can take off bumpers or just bumper guards.

Anyways, Outlaw or "normal" restauration - well its your decision.
Both will fetch good prices if done properly, but if your after making a buck or two, you might well consider a COA restauration.
By properly, I mean no major structural changes.

Martin

Mike Zois
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Location: North of SmelLA

#7 Post by Mike Zois »

The very definition of Outlaw means there is NO rules....
Mike Zois
57 Tubeframe Speedster
356 Registry# 17974
58 A Coupe, searching for parts
70 914/6 under restoration
73 911 RS Cabriolet
74 914 2.0 (sold)
Reno, NV

charles kourmpates

Re: 1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

#8 Post by charles kourmpates »

Marc Allingham wrote:I am about to embark on the restoration of my 1960 356 B. I am debating whether to bring the car back to its original beauty or transform her into a "mild" outlaw.
Mark,

I hope you don't mind the truth? Or at least, how I see it. And I'm sure you realize I'm free to voice my opinion. :D

Go "Outlaw" or "Custom," actually one of the same, and you'll regret it. :(

Just my opinion, and I do believe original is the only way to go.

However, I do consider these "changes" essential and OK to do, without sacrificing the origionality of the car or restoration. :shock:

Removable headlight buckets.
Removable fender brackets.
Omitting the jack receivers.
Modified horn brackets.
912 engine.
Change to 12V.
Full leather interior.

What did I leave out :?:

Any interest in this, just send me an e-mail, and I'll be glad to explain.

What's amazing to me is how the so called "original" buffs always seem to pick apart improvements in restorations, but praise customizing.

Go figure! :D

Charles

JOEL JENSEN

#9 Post by JOEL JENSEN »

Charles,
Making those changes would make the car non original, no different than adding a whale tail IMHO. :D

charles kourmpates

#10 Post by charles kourmpates »

JOEL JENSEN wrote:Charles,
Making those changes would make the car non original, no different than adding a whale tail IMHO. :D
Who's the guy that first compaired apples with oranges? Was it a 356 guy. :?: :D

That might be streching it a bit because the tail cannot be easily reversed.

There's cars that win awards repeatedly with after market parts. I guess they decide which car has less after market parts?

Maybe the old undercoating should be saved because replacing it with new isn't original. ?

Paint, bondo, primer, new metal, new parts, upholstery, glass. where does it begin and end. ?

There are no original cars.

Charles

JOEL JENSEN

#11 Post by JOEL JENSEN »

Even those cars that have been untouched since leaving the factory are no longer 'original' since the law of entropy has taken it's toll if one wants to carry 'original' to it's true meaning. The only truly 'original' cars are the ones that at this moment, are leaving the assembly line. 'Original' in vintage car world usually means kept as or restored as it left the factory and even the most rabid purist would likely subscribe to that definition. That said, it's your car, your money, and your decision as to how you want to proceed. The 'right' method of proceeding is the one that's right for you. :D

charles kourmpates

#12 Post by charles kourmpates »

Joel,

You make a lot of sense. I actually agree with you. :shock:

Charles

Joseph Carastro
356 Fan
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:16 pm

1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

#13 Post by Joseph Carastro »

Marc,

Original vs outlaw. The decision to do my A coupe as a mild outlaw (912
engine/5 speed trans/disc brakes) was based on the condition I received the
car in, which suggested that a return to "original" was just not feasible.
That being said, the car now reflects my particular vision for it and the
chance of recovering a substantial portion of the funds devoted to it are
not great. However, as I have no plan to sell it before I have extracted
the total amount in fun equivalents, that is not a problem. Part of the
value of having an outlaw is the journey, in most cases the value of someone
else's journey is not commensurate with the amount they spent.
As time goes on there are fewer and fewer "original" cars about, and as
they are the "Gold Standard" their value will be maintained.
One way to look at it is whether you are finishing the car for yourself or
the next owner.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Allingham [mailto:luvmy356@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 8:40 PM
To: 356talk@356registry.com
Subject: [356Talk] 1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?


I am about to embark on the restoration of my 1960 356 B. I am debating
whether to bring the car back to its original beauty or transform her into a
"mild" outlaw. The youtube video (link below) is what sparked the idea. I
find this early A to be a spectacular car. Who owns this baby?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9l6MXbN7Yt0

I have the following questions:

1) Nearly all outlaws that I have found on the web are T5s - Why?
2) Nearly all vintage race cars are T5s - Why?
3) What does this do to both the appeal and value of the car if and when I
decide to sell?
4) Are there any rules to follow to increase the appeal and value if I do
make it an outlaw?

Thank you for your input!

------------------------
Marc A.




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Russ Cochiolo
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Posts: 3
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Location: Oceano, CA

#14 Post by Russ Cochiolo »

Marc,
I don't have an answer to any of your questions. I agree with the responders who said it's your car, do it your way.
I thought that I'd share my story. Mom bought the car new and after my honeymoon, my brothers and hers, she began to call it the Honeymoon Special. 3 of my four sons have taken it on their honeymoon trips. She was looking a bit sad after 300K+ miles. As a retired teacher I did not have the funds for a proper restoration. My third son needed a body/paint project at the local community college and I decided that outlaw was the only option for me. ALL original parts are stashed in the rafters. I will post a photo when I figure out how to do it. Russ Cochiolo
Russ Cochiolo, caretaker "Honeymoon Special, Three Generations".

Guest

1960 T5 Restore to Original or Outlaw ?

#15 Post by Guest »

I think what I am hearing is that you desire something more
than the original can deliver. What I would do in your case
is to build a strong motor and then work on the suspension
to deliver a good handling car while still retaining all the
other parts of the car that make it look like the nice
period piece it is. You can make the motor a nice 100 hp one
that still drives nice when you want to just cruise, yet
still want to wind beyond 6000 rpm and love it. Get the
suspension at a point where it handles a lot better than
original but won't rattle your teeth out.

Alan

charles kourmpates wrote:
Joel,

You make a lot of sense. I actually agree with you. Shocked

Charles


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles Kourmpates
Convt. D. Last of the six
www.356metalwork.com <http://www.356metalwork.com>
www.cfcgraphics.com <http://www.cfcgraphics.com>
Rhode Island & Palm Beach Gardens, FL
Registry #12143




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