What's going on with my brakes?

[Alex Mestas]

Hi 356 Listers:

I have a 63 T-6 S coupe. Last night while driving my car , it started to pull sharply to the right every time I stepped on the brakes. I nursed it home. This morning I decided to see what was going on with my brakes. What I discovered was that it was NOT my front brake shoes that were locking up as I had suspected, BUT rather my REAR RIGHT brake that locked up every time I stepped on the brakes. I then drove it for a while and all of a sudden those symptoms left as fast as they began. I could not get the car to lock up like that again. What's going on? I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has had a similar experience or who know why it' happened. I also need to know what I should do, to prevent this from happening again, Not a safe feeling.

[Emil Wojcik]

Alex, How old are your brake hoses? My car acted the way you describe until I replaced the rear hoses.

[Guest]

I had the same problem with my brakes when I bought my car in 1986. Needed new wheel cylinders, which were leaking fluid onto the shoes. Wet shoes don't make for even braking. You'll get some thriling panic stops out of them though. Jim Slawson, 62 S90 coupe

[Martin Minnich]

I'm in agreement with Jim. It only takes a drop of fluid on the linings to make your day exciting. I once had a 48 Fleetwood pull a near J-turn in an intersection due to a leaking rear cylinder - much to the horror of those around me! Light brake application resulted in an uncontrolled rear-wheel lockup.

Marty

[Alex Mestas]

Hi 356'ers
I want to thank all of you that responded to my question regarding my 63 T-6 that began pulling sharply to the right when I put on my brakes. (Topic: What's going on with my brakes).
It turns out it was a right rear collapsed brake line. The four lines are currently being replaced. In researching how long it had been since they had been changed it appears that the lines were replaced in 1982. That was 26 years ago. That's scary! This situation started me thinking about the single versus dual stage master cylinder conversions currently available from some of our good vendors.

I see that both Klas356 and Zim's have one available. Is there any others? My question is should I do the conversion and if so, have any of you had experience with any of these conversion kits? I would appreciate any feedback. Off line if you prefer. I value your opinion and would feel more comfortable in my decision once I hear of others experiences. Thanks in advance.

[Michael Eker]

Before you rush to fit old style rubber pipes read this:

http://www.goodridge.net/usa/pdf/all_ma ... rubber.pdf

Brake technology has moved on in the last 50 years.

meker

[Jim Breazeale]

Before you rush to fit old style rubber pipes read this:

http://www.goodridge.net/usa/pdf/all_ma ... rubber.pdf

Brake technology has moved on in the last 50 years.

meker

Michael

Most of us have seen that "report" before. It is nothing more than a blantant advertisement for the company's braided hoses. It has been my experience (42 years involved with Porsches) that rubber hoses are far more reliable than braided hoses. I will admit that technology has advanced and there are probably braided hoses that equal or exceed the reliability of "old fashioned" rubber brake hoses but there is absolutely nothing wrong or unsafe with rubber hoses. In fact, Alex's problem would have happened with braided hoses anyway! I have 2 356s with rubber hoses and "old fashioned" single cylinder master cylinders that I drive regularly and rapidly and feel perfectly safe with my well maintained, "oldfashioned" brakes. I have suffered a total brake failure, though. It was in a Cessna Citation Jet. It would not have happened if I had a simple single cylinder master cylinder and "oldfashioned" rubber brake hoses, though!

Regards

[Michael Eker]

Any brake hose sold in the US has to be DOT approved.

Many years ago some braided hoses did fail the "whip test" and were refused certification.

However that was then and this is now and things have moved on a bit.

Advances in manufacturing processes mean that now braided PTFE hose much tougher

and long lasting than the 1920's technology rubber hose.

The relevant bit of the DOT regulations is Safety Standard 106, it is a lengthy read.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/ ... 71.106.pdf

A bigger worry nowadays is that the Chinese stamp "DOT Approved" on anything.

Checking the manufacturing source of your brake components is a more to the point than

worrying about whether the federal authorities are competent to certify brake

components.

meker

[Dave Wildrick]

Any brake hose sold in the US has to be DOT approved.

Many years ago some braided hoses did fail the "whip test" and were refused certification.

However that was then and this is now and things have moved on a bit.

Advances in manufacturing processes mean that now braided PTFE hose much tougher

and long lasting than the 1920's technology rubber hose.

How many miles have you logged driving a 356 on PTFE brake hoses? If your hose is hit by a rock, are you really sure it will bounce off without damaging anything? This is not a concern with rubber brake hoses.

Moreover, as an “expert” who has only been posting on 356talk since April 2008, why should someone accept your advice over that of Jim Breazeale, Al Zim, Alan Klingen, and others who have many decades of experience with repair and restoration of the 356 and who have also been freely offering their help on 356talk for more than 10 years?

[Michael Eker]

In 1996 I would have agreed with you.

This is 2008 though, and braided steel brake hose now exceed the OE specs for rubber

hose and are DOT approved.

The original braided hoses were just teflon tubes but the latest hoses are made of neoprene

with a fabric "net" embedded in them, and often have a teflon/ptfe liner too.

Maserati now fit braided brake lines as OE to the Quattroporte Sport GT.

See: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Dr ... eId=109774

This is a 175mph car.

The latest stainless steel braided hoses are virtually indestructible, prevent swelling

and produce a fabulous direct and controllable brake pedal feel.

meker

[Jim Breazeale]

Any brake hose sold in the US has to be DOT approved.

Many years ago some braided hoses did fail the "whip test" and were refused certification.

However that was then and this is now and things have moved on a bit.

Advances in manufacturing processes mean that now braided PTFE hose much tougher

and long lasting than the 1920's technology rubber hose.

How many miles have you logged driving a 356 on PTFE brake hoses? If your hose is hit by a rock, are you really sure it will bounce off without damaging anything? This is not a concern with rubber brake hoses.

Moreover, as an “expert” who has only been posting on 356talk since April 2008, why should someone accept your advice over that of Jim Breazeale, Al Zim, Alan Klingen, and others who have many decades of experience with repair and restoration of the 356 and who have also been freely offering their help on 356talk for more than 10 years?

Dave

I don't want to turn this into a pissin' contest. Michael's points are well taken, as are yours . We are driving cars where the newest of the bunch is well over 40 years old. Most of them are equipped with "old fashioned" rubber brake hoses and are perfectly safe. It is best to change them every few years and it is manditory to do it if the car has not been driven for an extended period of time. That goes for rubber hoses as well as PTFE hoses. Changing perfectly good rubber hoses to "modern" PTFE hoses will not increase safety or reliability one bit, though, and should not cause a stampede to our local brake hose store for replacements. A properly maintained brake system is very safe no matter what type of hoses or master cylinder is installed.

Regards

[Alex Mestas]

Hi Listers:
Here are some pictures of my collapse brake lines that were are 25 years old. They were 95% blocked. If ithey were human valves it would have required a quadruple by pass! scary thought! Thanks for all the great input.