Notchback conversion value

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Andy Mathes
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Notchback conversion value

#1 Post by Andy Mathes »

I just joined the forum after a three year absence from the world of 356's, formally owning a 1964 SC and a 1965 C. At any rate, I came across a really attractive 1962 notchback convertible conversion a few weeks back and I am seriously thinking about buying it for a bit of fun this summer. Have any of these recently sold so I can establish a value for this 356???

The car is really very presentable, but it has no convertible top to speak of, and what appears to be a counterbalanced 912 motor. The rear fenders have very slight flares that have been butt welded on and the car has kind of an outlaw feel to it; nerf bumpers, removed hood handle...etc. Quality metal and fabrication work was put into this car. VIN check shows that it once was a notchback.

I am not a big fan of non original cars, but a real cab or roadster is definately out of my price range. Any advice from the experts or recent sales of like cars would be most appreciated.

Thanks, Andy

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Adam Wright
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#2 Post by Adam Wright »

Keep in mind a couple of things.
1. If you ever decide to put a top frame on you are looking at serious money, probably $6000-80000, for a finished one.
2. Re-sale will have a smaller market than most other 356s.

But if you are ok with those two things you should probably value the car somewhere between a traditional Notchback and a cab. I sold a nice Notch driver this year for around $21,000, and an ok cab will set you back about $35,000-40,0000. So I would pay mid $20,000s for your knotch conversion, maybe more if it had a top.
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Barry Brisco
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Re: Notchback conversion value

#3 Post by Barry Brisco »

Andy, glad to hear that you are hopefully going to re-enter the world of 356 ownership!

Regarding the "value" of the particular car you are considering: it's very difficult to assign a value to a 356 even after a detailed inspection because each one is unique and every potential buyer brings a different perspective (and wallet) to the situation. This is especially true for cars that are not in stock condition such as outlaws or cars that have been heavily modified. Such cars only appeal to a narrow segment of the classic car market. You are unlikely to find another converted notchback with no top, 912 engine, similar bodywork and fender flares that has been sold in the last year. And even if you did, how would that help you? That would be one buyer and one seller. It's a unique transaction that cannot be duplicated.

In my opinion, the "value" of any vintage car is set by negotiation between a buyer and the seller. A different buyer will have a different "value" for the car. Of course there is a broad range of values that one can estimate a car will fall into (no buyer is going to sell a 356 that runs for $100 unless they are demented). Adam offered a value range, and he looks at a lot of cars. But the seller of the car you describe may have an entirely different opinion of its value and may consider an offer in the "mid $20,000s" laughably low given the weak US dollar: he may decide to sell it overseas. I might look at the car and consider that too high (No top and fender flares? That could cost $20K or more to fix, including repainting the car after the fender work and then it would still be a radically modified notchback). Or maybe to you those issues don't need "fixing". Obviously you could drive it as is, but if you go to sell it you may find that other potential buyers don't "value" the car as much as you did when you bought it.

That said, in these days of "driver" Speedsters that could use a complete restoration but still sell for well over $100K, anything seems possible. I just heard of a Convertible D selling in the US for just over $100K (and not to an overseas buyer) and this car was a driver with "issues". Given the condition I would not have paid over $70K for the car. To the person who bought it, that was its "value". But that does not mean that from this point on, all D drivers will sell for over $100K.

I do think that you can find a decent driver B coupe for less than $30K. They seem like the best value to me.

Good luck,

Barry Brisco
Andy Mathes wrote:I came across a really attractive 1962 notchback convertible conversion a few weeks back and I am seriously thinking about buying it for a bit of fun this summer. Have any of these recently sold so I can establish a value for this 356???
The car is really very presentable, but it has no convertible top to speak of, and what appears to be a counterbalanced 912 motor. The rear fenders have very slight flares that have been butt welded on and the car has kind of an outlaw feel to it; nerf bumpers, removed hood handle...etc. Quality metal and fabrication work was put into this car. VIN check shows that it once was a notchback.

Cliff Murray

#4 Post by Cliff Murray »

The safe answer, for the buyer, is, less than the value of the car as a stock Notch in the same condition. It is cheaper and more correct to convert the car back to a Notch. Deduct the cost of converting back to a Notch and you will be covered. Remember that Notchbacks are coming up in value. If you spend a ton of money to make it a Cab, it is still not a Cab and not worth what a Cab is worth. Buy the car "right" and enjoy it the way it is and still be able to get out of it when you want.

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Value notchback

#5 Post by Roy Smalley »

Déjà vu all over again.....

Stating the obvious perhaps, a converted car will be worth less than an otherwise comparable non-converted car, so the question is how much? On this specific car, flares would be an issue equal to the conversion factor to me. I have never seen add-on flares add one iota to the esthetic appearance of a 356. A poor conversion, that is sorry body, paint interior and so forth, no top would be worth considerably less than a comparable cab because added value to a conversion comes with completeness and quality of work done.

I think a well done notch conversion could be worth more than a poorly done cab in a narrow set of demand circumstances.

Personally I have owned a bunch of cars, none that I ever planned to sell. But there comes a time there is a better car, or reality of "what do I do with all these cars" sets in, so 'what the car will bring if I have to sell it' does matter since I don't have a limitless budget.

So, the value of this particular car should swing first on condition and more importantly being able to get out at some future date (unless you plan on being buried in it) an amount that will satisfy you, or that you can eat. Quality first and foremost (since originality is out of the question).
 Roy Smalley
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jed goniu
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Value?

#6 Post by jed goniu »

Not to HighJack this thread but please indulge me to respond to Barrys Comment. I am the American Buyer of the 100K D Barry relates to. The Driver with "Issues". I had been watching many cars for months attempting to purchase a car. I heard of Barrys car for sale. Barry emailed me pictures and info on his Coupe. He later decided not to sell. I felt his price was too high and the "value" wasnt there for me. Instead I continued my search and bought the D. I passed on Barrys car to buy the 100K Converitble D. So, in short, Value is certainly a perplexing question. Value is a combination of many variables. My purchasing The D while Barry did not see 70K Value is a perfect example of the varing degrees of what a car is worth. What my thread has to do with the NotchbackValue Thread, Who the Hell knows.

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Notchback conversion value

#7 Post by Norm Miller »

Jed,

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

"Never look back and press onward through the fog"

"If it ain't yours you don't have to worry about it"

ENJOY,
Norm

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Barry Brisco
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Notchback conversion value

#8 Post by Barry Brisco »

Just to clarify, when I briefly lost my mind recently and was
offering my 59 coupe for sale, it was for $68K (not $70K as Jed
states) and I actually got an offer at that price but then decided
not to sell.

I am glad Jed is happy with his recently purchased Convertible D. I
was citing the purchase of that car (without mentioning any names)
for over $100K to illustrate my point that just because a particular
356 model sells for a certain price, that does not mean that from
that point on all 356s similar to that particular car would then sell
for that price or more. I also stated that "To the person who bought
it, that was its value."

In my opinion, the "value" of any vintage car is set by negotiation
between a buyer and a seller. A different buyer will have a different
"value" for the car. Each vintage car is unique.

Barry

---------------------------------------------------------------------
At 18:02 -0700 6/8/08, jed goniu wrote:
Not to HighJack this thread but please indulge me to respond to
Barrys Comment. I am the American Buyer of the 100K D Barry relates
to. The Driver with "Issues". I had been watching many cars for
months attempting to purchase a car. I heard of Barrys car for
sale. Barry emailed me pictures and info on his Coupe. He later
decided not to sell. I felt his price was too high and the "value"
wasnt there for me. Instead I continued my search and bought the D.
I passed on Barrys car to buy the 100K Converitble D. So, in short,
Value is certainly a perplexing question. Value is a combination of
many variables. My purchasing The D while Barry did not see 70K
Value is a perfect example of the varing degrees of what a car is
worth. What my thread has to do with the NotchbackValue Thread, Who
the Hell knows.

------------------------
1959 356A Convertible D




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Charlie White
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I wonder if...........

#9 Post by Charlie White »

I wonder if this is the Notchback conversion that was listed on Ebay about a year or more ago, and then later showed up for sale on several forums. I believe it was red and also had flared fenders. It was a subject of discussion on the old email List.

CW
Charlie White

Andy Mathes
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#10 Post by Andy Mathes »

Thank you to everybody for your thoughts on this purchase....to end any speculation, this car has never been on ebay...ever... as a matter of fact, if has not been driven on the street since the very early 90's and has been sitting in storage since. I would never try to revert it back to its original shape, as it would be too challenging for a small return. I simply don't think that the market is that strong in the notchback segment to rationalize it, and I really don't like the shape anyway (I hope I didn't offend anyone).

Originality and investment potential have driven the ongoing restoration of my 1976 Ferrari 308 GTB. It would be nice to have a fun car that I won't spend a lot of energy chasing down NOS parts or original italian hardware. Just gas and enjoy. I don't even need a soft top, maybe the only real benefit of living in Southern California.

I will make an offer on it this week in the mid 20's. With VW powered speedster replicas selling for almost the same money, I don't think its unreasonable to be able to re-sell it without a huge loss should I grow tired of it. I'll post pictures if I can.

Thanks again,

Andy Mathes

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Kevin Wiggins
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#11 Post by Kevin Wiggins »

Fight the Power!

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Adam Wright
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#12 Post by Adam Wright »

Andy does bring up a good point. If you can afford the car and will enjoy it, not worrying about the "value" might actually be a good idea.

There are plenty of cars that I would buy not as my first classic car, but as the 4th or 5th in a collection, and those are the ones that you need not worry about all the details. I would probably go buy a Jag XK 120, for too much money that had the wrong heads and wrong year seats, there would be plenty of Jag guys out there to point this out to me, but if it was just there to enjoy, who cares.

It sounds like Andy has spent all his mental energy wrapping his head around his Ferrari, so let him cruise in a cut notch, even if he pays more than you would.

His other point that rings true is that he will be paying close to what the plastic Speedsters sell for. Ask me what I would rather drive, a plastic Speedster or a cut notch, I think it would have to start with a P.
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Andy Mathes
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#13 Post by Andy Mathes »

Adam Wright wrote: It sounds like Andy has spent all his mental energy wrapping his head around his Ferrari
Adam, before buying it, I had no idea how tough an early Ferrari restoration would be. My car is a fiberglass 1976 308 GTB and is the 23rd imported of 81 cars total. The fiberglass cars are the Holy Grail of Ferrari V-8's and are rare, even by Ferrari standards. Every car was put together a little differently and parts, if you can find them, are EXPENSIVE. It gets to be tough because I am not the "just write the check" car guy and have a budget, unlike most guys with old Ferrari's.

A non original 356, even a chopped outlaw convetible, would be pretty cool, and I don't think I will get hurt too bad if I sell later. I am trying to get a couple of pictures online soon.

Andy

Andy Mathes
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The car

#14 Post by Andy Mathes »

Image
[/img]

I wish I had taken more pictures, but I was actually there to look at another car.

Image
Last edited by Andy Mathes on Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ron LaDow
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Notchback conversion value

#15 Post by Ron LaDow »

Andy,
That's not a notch-back conversion. It's a coupe with the top sawed off and a Speedster windshield. Harry Pellow owned one something like that; what tail lights does it have?
Thanks,
Ron LaDow

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Mathes"
To: 356talk@356registry.com
Subject: [356Talk] Notchback conversion value
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 18:31:05 -0700


[Image: http://www.postimage.org/aV2YQyZ9.jpg ]
(http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2YQyZ9)
[/img]

I wish I had taken more pictures, but I was actually there to look
at another car.

[Image: http://www.postimage.org/aV2YTs3A.jpg ]
(http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV2YTs3A)




Thanks,
Ron LaDow
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Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz

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