I guess the day for the $150k single grill Roadster has come

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Tom Farnam
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Cutting corners?

#16 Post by Tom Farnam »

It's interesting to see the comment "If one corner is cut then one can conclude that there "may" be many corners cut in other important areas.".

The comment is especially interesting when made by one who made (and told all of us about) numerous modifications in the process of a "restoration", simply because they were considered by someone as improvements.

Is removal of the fuel cock cutting corners? How about removable fender braces? Pop rivets in place of welding? E-mails have a long shelf life.

Tom
Tom Farnam C356C Reg. #450
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Dave Mitchell
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Re: Cutting corners?

#17 Post by Dave Mitchell »

Tom Farnam wrote:It's interesting to see the comment "If one corner is cut then one can conclude that there "may" be many corners cut in other important areas.".

The comment is especially interesting when made by one who made (and told all of us about) numerous modifications in the process of a "restoration", simply because they were considered by someone as improvements.

Is removal of the fuel cock cutting corners? How about removable fender braces? Pop rivets in place of welding? E-mails have a long shelf life.

Tom
There is only one way to do it when it comes to a restoration IMHO correct or not at all. Now does that mean the car has to be as the factory did it? No, a safety improvement for a driver such as duel circut brakes is a good idea but as for "pop" rivits :shock: not a chance....... :wink:
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John Willhoit
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#18 Post by John Willhoit »

Just for the record, we've sold several T5 Roadsters for over $150K.
John Willhoit
http://www.willhoitautorestoration.com
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charles kourmpates

Re: Cutting corners?

#19 Post by charles kourmpates »

Dave Mitchell wrote:
Tom Farnam wrote:It's interesting to see the comment "If one corner is cut then one can conclude that there "may" be many corners cut in other important areas.".

The comment is especially interesting when made by one who made (and told all of us about) numerous modifications in the process of a "restoration", simply because they were considered by someone as improvements.

Is removal of the fuel cock cutting corners? How about removable fender braces? Pop rivets in place of welding? E-mails have a long shelf life.

Tom
Dave Mitchell wrote:[There is only one way to do it when it comes to a restoration IMHO correct or not at all. Now does that mean the car has to be as the factory did it? No, a safety improvement for a driver such as duel circut brakes is a good idea but as for "pop" rivits :shock: not a chance....... :wink:
Tom and Dave,

Certainly some changes are important and needed. Regardless of "corner cutting."

Take Wilhoit Auto Restoration as an example. Simply a remarkable restoration shop! John has said that most, if not all of his restorations, are changed to 12V.

An improvement or detriment? I vote improvement.

Longitudinal's attached at the sill with rivets? Not necessarily an improvement, but certainly a time saver with installment. Not to mention the burning away of primed areas that are "closed," with welding, exposing bare metal in areas that cannot be treated religiously. A retired Factory Porsche Design Engineer saw nothing wrong with this method!

An improvement or detriment? We can disagree on this forever.

Removable fender brackets, this certainly can be debated, but this does allow for better access to priming and painting the underside of the body metal. Not to mention applying undercoating, if it's to be used. A retired Factory Porsche Design Engineer saw nothing wrong with this method!

An improvement or detriment? We can disagree on this forever.

I have removable headlight buckets. This allows for no damage to primed areas when spot welded them in place. Certainly not for everyone but I believe the argument is in my favor. Makes for easier painting and assures an accurate fit of the headlight rim rubber. A retired Factory Porsche Design Engineer saw nothing wrong with this method!

An improvement or detriment? I vote improvement.

The fuel cock? Ugly as sin. I believe all cars should eliminate this device. Someone should produce a "fuel cock elimination kit." Surely to be a big seller! It would catch on.

An improvement or detriment? I vote improvement?

Zim's short shifter kit! I have one, they are inexpensive and it takes minutes to install. An absolute improvement! Thank you Al!!

Tom makes an excellent point with the dual master cylinder. Kudos Tom. No car should be driven without one. They are also the best and safest improvment you can make to your car.

An improvement or detriment? An absolute improvement.

Could a list be endless and argued back and forth without being resolved forever!? Possiby

But certainly "some" improvements or changes are considered OK depending on "who" it is that makes the changes and "why." :wink:

None of the above would discourage anyone from purchasing a 356 with these changes, improvments, or the lack of any changes, including the lack of the dual master cylinder. Interesting.

150K Roadsters? Absolutely, and to quote Jack Nicholson, "You ain't seen nothing yet."

Like I said, these cars are worth every penny!

Charles
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Emil Wojcik
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#20 Post by Emil Wojcik »

Charles, If you’re looking for top dollar, which I think the point of the first post was, then all of your changes will be detrimental. Not to say that your changes will make it hard to sell, but it will cut out the highest end of the market - the concours buyer. So a D that's restored to the same level as yours, but to original factory spec will be more likely to bring the high price this thread is talking about. Even if we all agree that your changes are improvements, you have limited your market at this high level of restoration.
Emil Wojcik
'64 356C Euro coupe
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Tom Farnam
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Inquiring Minds Want to Know

#21 Post by Tom Farnam »

Charles, whose car are you using for your avatar?

You have been telling us for years about your black D, why a red $peed$ter for an avatar?

Tom

ps - Rationalize modifications, simplifications or whatever of a 356 all you like, but when you are not putting it back to original condition (or at least a condition which could have been original) please call the result an outlaw, not a restoration.
Tom Farnam C356C Reg. #450
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charles kourmpates

Re: Inquiring Minds Want to Know

#22 Post by charles kourmpates »

Tom Farnam wrote:Charles, whose car are you using for your avatar?

You have been telling us for years about your black D, why a red $peed$ter for an avatar?

Tom

ps - Rationalize modifications, simplifications or whatever of a 356 all you like, but when you are not putting it back to original condition (or at least a condition which could have been original) please call the result an outlaw, not a restoration.
Tom,

You're a funny guy. Outlaw. I'll be sure to mention you in my next 356 Comedic website, your giving me plenty of material. :)

Thank you for the complement on the the Avatar. It was from a generous and kind member who sent me a photo. I originally used it for my Porsche Print website's index page. The shot was taken in a parking lot in the daytime. I did a Photoshop thing to it.

www.cfcgraphics.com/porschefineart.html

My dream one day, is to have a Speedster.

BTW, Yes, My D is a black one, you have a good memory. For a while I considered painting it Ivory, but interested and concerned Members talked me out of it.

At that time, I had no idea that only six Convertible "D"s were "special" painted Black at the Porsche Factory.

Makes this particular "D" really unusual. Black seems to be a popular color with Members.

Imagine I almost changed the color! That would have made it an Outlaw for sure. :wink:

Thanks again for the reply.

Charles

charles kourmpates

#23 Post by charles kourmpates »

Emil Wojcik wrote:Charles, If you’re looking for top dollar, which I think the point of the first post was, then all of your changes will be detrimental. Not to say that your changes will make it hard to sell, but it will cut out the highest end of the market - the concours buyer. So a D that's restored to the same level as yours, but to original factory spec will be more likely to bring the high price this thread is talking about. Even if we all agree that your changes are improvements, you have limited your market at this high level of restoration.
Emil,

I don't know if I'm looking for anything? I do know we're not talking about 150K Roadsters anymore. :D

As far as values, we see 356's sell for crazy money, cars which aren't even numbers maching and all the bright work, not to mention other parts, are aftermarket.

Cars with changed colors and major body parts replaced from other cars, also sell for incredable amounts! Bondo queens with vinyl interior sell well beyond their value. I've seen these cars.

I strongly believe I'm in good shape. I've been honest and straight forward with this restoration project and 98% of the Members are aware of this.

I'm pleased to say that the "D" passed a PPI performed by a retired Porsche design engineer. I mentioned this last year. He flew here all the way from Germany. Again, thanks to Member's interest, I turned down a 75K offer on this D, and it's not finished.

So somebody must know something.

The "D" will break all records if sold when completed. My description text will not only describe the car, but will be educational. As it should.

Charles

Tom Scott
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1960 Roadster sold on ebay

#24 Post by Tom Scott »

If anyone is interested, I do know something about the silver/red Roadster which was sold recently on ebay. I acquired the car after an incomplete restoration, the metal work was completed; new floors, battery box, longitudinals, no rust or bad metal anywhere, the exterior was very good but needed some fine tuning. The intention was to complete the car to a very high level, street concours driver, but not a Parade level full concours car. There any many photos of the restoration to be found at:

http://imageevent.com/356consulting/196 ... rinprocess

I am ashamed to admit what I sold the car for to the dealer, he certainly knows the market as well as marketing better than I do. I do believe that the ebay description was accurate and complete. Of further interest, I restored and sold another Roadster for more than the ebay price. Go to:

http://imageevent.com/356consulting/1960roadster87473

This was a seven month restoration from start to finish, COA all matching, and shown at the San Diego Parade and 2007 356 Dana Point Concours, Best Of Show.

I am looking for a Speedster, T2, minimal accident damage and rust for a similar project. I have promised my wife this will be the "last" one.

Dr. Nuts :o

charles kourmpates

#25 Post by charles kourmpates »

Tom,

I had no idea you did this kind of work? The work is excellent. Thank you for the links to all those photos. I looked at every one of them.

I found many that will be of good use to me for finishing my project. I copied them and placed them in my "restoration" file. I'll review them when the time comes.

I suggest that others take a look at these photos. It's a great view and much can be learned.

I honestly have learned a great deal from them.

Thanks again.

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$150K Roadster

#26 Post by Guest »

Well I'm not a big fan of the Talk list/Forum...Too much mis-information for me. But the question "Is the $150K single grill Roadster here" I just could not stay under my rock on this one.
I have three B coupes, two T5's and one T6 their all 9 point cars out of 10 and over the last six months I have been offered at different times over $70K for each one from different people and I see $100K for them right around the corner. So the question if the single grill is worth $150K.... Of course it is!! A good friend of mine just sold his Twin Grill Roadster for $225K a sale totaly under the radar, the way a sale should be. The great thing about this hobby of owning a 356 is, their a GREAT car and a piece of automotive history never to be seen again and of course all years and models of the 356 is only going to increase in value....So hang on and enjoy the ride!!
Cheers and back under my rock :wink:

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Tom Farnam
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Real Restoration

#27 Post by Tom Farnam »

Tom (Dr. Nuts) Scott has been doing restorations of this quality for many years - about 30 of which I'm aware. Not to mention he is a gentleman and willing to help anyone who asks.

Thanks for posting those photos Tom Scott, it's good to see your work close up again. Visiting with you and other old friends is one of the few things I miss about PCA Parades.

Tom
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Barry Brisco
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Re: $150K Roadster

#28 Post by Barry Brisco »

Bob Lee wrote:Well I'm not a big fan of the Talk list/Forum...Too much mis-information for me.
Hi Bob,

In terms of the quality of information offered on this Forum or on the old email list, to me it's like what you hear when you go to a 356 event or club meeting: multiple points of view some of which you agree with and some of which you don't.

The advantage of this Forum is that a very large number of 356 enthusiasts read it, and that if mis-information is posted it is generally quickly corrected by others more knowledgeable, and the discussion is there for everyone to see. The discerning reader quickly figures out who knows what they are talking about and who is talking through their hat. :-)

Issues for which there is no single "correct" answer (and many issues fall into that category) get debated and various points of view are offered. The reader can then decide. Everyone can learn. I think that's a good thing.

Your alternative is...?

Venues such as this Forum are particularly good for 356 owners who are not as fortunate as you and I are to live in a place like California where 356s are relatively plentiful, there are active clubs and yearly events that attract hundreds of cars and owners. Many 356 owners are not so fortunate, and rarely see another 356 or attend an event.

In my brief five years of 356 ownership I have learned an incredible amount from 356Talk and met many new friends. And I've learned that what is printed in books is not always correct.

Best regards,
Barry Brisco
1959 356A Coupe 105553, Ivory / Brown
2009 987 Cayman, Carrera White / Beige (daily driver)

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Increasing 356 values $$$

#29 Post by Guest »

Barry,
I told myself that I would not go down a forum rat hole....The point here is not my personal thoughts on the forum ( which I should have kept my opinion to my self) The point is the increasing value of our 356's
Back under my rock I go......Cheers

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John Lewenauer
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Re: Increasing 356 values $$$

#30 Post by John Lewenauer »

Bob Lee wrote:Barry,
I told myself that I would not go down a forum rat hole....The point here is not my personal thoughts on the forum ( which I should have kept my opinion to my self) The point is the increasing value of our 356's
Back under my rock I go......Cheers
I found your shared information to not only be valuable, but valid. Published sales are always lower than private, where most of the great cars and big bucks trade. It's nice to gain an inside perspective.
1964 356 C Coupe, Togo/Fawn, Chassis 126634
Enjoy some pictures of my Togo 356 at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603043153749/show/

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