Faker!

356 Porsche-related discussions and questions.
Message
Author
Dan Epperly
356 Fan
Posts: 1139
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:35 pm

Re: Faker!

#31 Post by Dan Epperly »

Why is all this matching number stuff such a big deal anyway? I guess it suggests the car has not been molested all those years, but most are literally shadows of their original selves even when panel and running gear match. New everything sort of takes away from the illusion created by the matching numbers stuff.

Erik Thomas
356 Fan
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:55 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Faker!

#32 Post by Erik Thomas »

Now we know why unnumbered 3rd pieces are sooo expensive. A clever person could open a die cast mould and make a few hundred of those too. Just as in aircraft, the data plate IS the car. The numbers ARE the engine.The rest of it is replaceable. Back in the 80's I wish I had saved all those 3rd pieces, and all those junkyard speedster data plates. No, instead they went to the scrap dealer with the empty aluminium beer cans. The Bentley, Bugatti, Ferrari and now 356 world are populated by mercenaries. Used to be a hobby.

Pierre Ducroit
356 Fan
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:08 pm

Re: Faker!

#33 Post by Pierre Ducroit »

hello if i may say something,i think that restamp an engine is like denying that you have a great 60 old car,that by the way everyone should be very honored to own a piece of history,my car is not matching numbers and for me the price is the same as a matching number.I think people tend to restamp (or at least thinking on do it) because there are people out there that pays more money for a matching car.
my conclusion is :if the car is great keep it that way it has come into your life like this,thats part of history.
i apologise for my bad english.
Regards.

User avatar
Mike Wilson
Classifieds Monitor
Posts: 11490
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: SW Los Angeles

Re: Faker!

#34 Post by Mike Wilson »

Well said and no apology necessary, Pierre!

Mike
Mike Wilson
Lomita, CA
'63 B coupe

User avatar
Jacques Lefriant
356 Fan
Posts: 4597
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:50 pm
Location: Washoe county NV

Re: Faker!

#35 Post by Jacques Lefriant »

So let us get on the same page restoring a car is Fraud if significant substitution of parts is the scope of the project. it is illegal and warranting prosecution if stolen parts are used and or the purpose is to misrepresent the car for significant gain. Also some altering of numbers could depending on the circumstances open one to persecution by the authorities since it hinders their ability to establish ownership. This is my take on the situation. Personalty i will not restamp or participate in affecting the change of numbers but acknowledge the right of individuals to have it done for their own purpose.
j
 

User avatar
Ron LaDow
356 Fan
Posts: 8092
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:45 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: Faker!

#36 Post by Ron LaDow »

Jacques Lefriant wrote:...Personalty i will not restamp or participate in affecting the change of numbers but acknowledge the right of individuals to have it done for their own purpose.
j
Personally, I'll acknowledge the right of individuals to sell you pieces of paper which *look like* APL stock certificates for their own purpose.
Ron LaDow
www.precisionmatters.biz

User avatar
Adam Wright
Classifieds Monitor
Posts: 10304
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:00 am
Tag: KTF

Re: Faker!

#37 Post by Adam Wright »

The question people usually ask in this situation, usually with a shrug is,

"What's the big deal?"

I always answer with the same statement,

"What's the big deal?"

It's either important or it's not, and if it isn't important, why do it? Because it is important, it greatly affects the value of your car and increases it's prestige in many eyes. This drives people to break out the stamps.
Personally, I think a numbers matching car is very cool, and can see the value in it. My car is not numbers matching, but that doesn't stop me from always searching for the original motor. It has yet to appear on the shelf...
Attachments
engines1.jpeg
www.unobtanium-inc.com
Check out my Barn Find column in the Registry magazine, always looking for good stories.

Cory Evens
356 Fan
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:52 am
Location: Costa Mesa, CA

Re: Faker!

#38 Post by Cory Evens »

Would I be happy if I somehow found my third piece, original numbered to my 56, sure! But it wouldn't be right for me to try and put it in my car on an unmatched case. We may own these cars now but we are only really caretakers for future enthusiasts. I personally would err on keeping the hobby clean and except the car as you find it.

These cars a lot of times were raced way back when and with that usually comes spent and discarded engines, only replaced with another one of the times, that to me is a cool part of history. Not saying that's part of MY cars' history but it is a fact of Porsche history.

Now if I was to find my original block or case I'd be ecstatic mating it to the car after all these years but until then I'm perfectly satisfied with the 57 stamped 1600 it currently has. To me it's part of it's history that maybe way back when the original exploded and the 57 was put in it's place to keep the car on the road.

I guess in a way I'm lucky to have a period block with the car for so long as it ran for nearly 20 years with a VW engine while this block survived "on ice" with the car from owner to owner for potentially decades.


Adam: Now we know why you have so much stuff on your shelf. You still haven't found that original engine!

Cory Evens
356 Fan
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:52 am
Location: Costa Mesa, CA

Re: Faker!

#39 Post by Cory Evens »

BTW I have met Roland being currently from Foster City while looking for a small body 12v generator months ago. Still deciding whether to make the switch. Apparently a former Porsche dealer mechanic decades ago from Switzerland. Told me about his process but it's just not something I'm into.

He did tell me something interesting though. Said most of the cars back in the 60's while he was working in Switzerland came through their shop with blank cases. Which led me to think maybe engine numbers were a country thing? Like US cars were stamped due to regulations where other countries maybe not? IN NO WAY justifies renumbering today in my eyes, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

Which leads me to the dilemma of missing the A pillar covers for the 56 (just gone) and a chewed up A pillar Karmann VIN plate for the 65 C. VIN number still intact but paint code is chewed up. On that plate it appears someone just smashed out the paint code when they switched the car from Irish Green to Bali Blue. What do you all think about replacing and restamping those plates?

User avatar
John Hearn
356 Fan
Posts: 627
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:26 am
Tag: Porsche is a two sylable word!
Location: Colchester, Great Britain

Re: Faker!

#40 Post by John Hearn »

Vic
Happy Birthday from yesterday, 1-23-45........
Your parents had good timing!!!
KTF
John

Erik Thomas
356 Fan
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:55 pm
Location: Rhode Island

Re: Faker!

#41 Post by Erik Thomas »

There are a few jurisdictions where old cars being imported must have the original engine and matching numbers. Hong Kong is one of those places, which I know from first hand experience. Number stamping is a high art form there. This is not an attempt to bump auction values, just a way of dealing with the local cops.

User avatar
Neil Bardsley
356 Fan
Posts: 1099
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:21 am
Location: London

Re: Faker!

#42 Post by Neil Bardsley »

I was offered the original gearbox for my 56 last year. I decided against starting a long, expensive search for the matching engine that would result in a car what didn't drive any better :)

User avatar
Vic Skirmants
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 9276
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: SE Michigan
Contact:

Re: Faker!

#43 Post by Vic Skirmants »

John, Thank you!

User avatar
Vic Skirmants
Registry Hall of Fame
Posts: 9276
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: SE Michigan
Contact:

Re: Faker!

#44 Post by Vic Skirmants »

Cory:
"He did tell me something interesting though. Said most of the cars back in the 60's while he was working in Switzerland came through their shop with blank cases. Which led me to think maybe engine numbers were a country thing? Like US cars were stamped due to regulations where other countries maybe not? IN NO WAY justifies renumbering today in my eyes, but an interesting observation nonetheless."

That's about the dumbest thing I've heard this week!

User avatar
C J Murray
356 Fan
Posts: 9158
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: 30MI WEST OF PHILA
Contact:

Re: Faker!

#45 Post by C J Murray »

Vic, learn how to use the quote button please.

So when the Porsche dealer sold you a replacement case through the parts department it was blank. If they used that part for a warranty repair did the factory require the dealer to stamp the new case and return or destroy the defective case? Things were pretty loose in the old days but today we have to send back to the manufacturer any numbered section of a numbered part like a frame or engine.

Anyway, if the original number was stamped onto a new case then is that "numbers matching" or not? Exactly what verifiable value enhancement are the "numbers matching" buyers paying a premium for?

What about the essence of the 356, the body? Debate the originality of this car knowing that thankfully people were not injured and that the car will be ultra nice when finished. Saving the car is not a bad thing but it will be way far from what it was in Stuttgart circa 1955.
https://willhoit356.smugmug.com/Restora ... edster-BC/
'57 Speedster
'59 Sunroof
'60 Devin D Porsche Race Car
'63 Cabriolet "Norm"
'67 911 S Original Owner
'03 Ferrari 575M
'09 Smart Passion

Post Reply